Episode Discussion 2x04: The Crocodile

[jadestrick.livejournal.com]

Episode Discussion 2x04: The Crocodile

Belle's disgust over Mr. Gold's continuing thirst for power comes to a head, and she threatens to leave him if he can't change his evil ways; the dwarves pick up their axes and try to find fairy dust in the Storybrooke mine; and a reunion with an old acquaintance could prove to be Belle's undoing. Meanwhile, back in the fairytale land that was, Rumplestiltskin attempts to save his wife, Milah, from being kidnapped by a band of cutthroat pirates.

P.S. Phew! Barely made it. Sorry for the delay. Wal-Mart had no less than 15 people in all 5/600 of its lines.

P.P.S. You all know it's really paining me to not use the picture I want up here. *meeps!!!*

Comments

[primreceded.livejournal.com]

Is the town that big, though? I can understand Jefferson, he was trapped under a freaking car, but Belle? You know, up until a few minutes ago obviously.

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

Regina said back in S1 (when Emma asked where Katherine Nolan had been) that the town is bigger than Emma can imagine.

[paulownia.livejournal.com]

I can't muster any like for Rumple's first wife. I have no sympathy for her choice to leave her son. Honestly, I did not care when she died and as a result, I had a hard time with Hook and his whole revenge motivation.

I honestly would have preferred Hook without the baggage. While this complication gives him a reason to ally with Cora, it set him up to be another quasi-baddie in a very "grey" field of 'villains' .

My biggest fear is we're heading towards another LOST ending where even the worst guys are really not bad. They're just complicated.

I want to see some real evil. Just unapologetic evil.

[bloodysuicide69.livejournal.com]

I never finished Lost, so I don't know annoying that might be...

That said: I always figured an evil person with a complicated reason for being evil is more realistic than an unapologetic, heartless, ruthless, no remorse, no reason, just pure evil person. Sure they are easier to hate, but that's what makes an evil person with complications so amazing. ITS HARD to hate them. You can imagine yourself in their shoes. You can SEE their reasons and feel they COULD be justified. I'm not giving alls and nones here. Everyone has a breaking point.

It makes them real. That's how I feel anyway.

[bloodysuicide69.livejournal.com]

PS: I hate Rumple's wife. No one leaves their child for another man unless they are heartless. Sure she might have had true love, but even that shouldn't have stopped her from at least taking Baelfire with her. Most women who want to be out of a relationship at least take their children with them, and those that don't.... well I consider them to be damaged somehow. Perhaps she was damaged.

I loved how they said that Hook was able to travel between realms with his ship... and that he got to go to Neverland with the bean. Doesn't that mean that it probably wasn't the bean Rumple was looking for anyway?

Or does the bean go wherever you want to? And Hook wanted it to go somewhere where he would be immortal?

I really hope they bring Peter Pan into this... at least eventually.

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

Funny, I was just giving a talk last night where I said that if nothing is truly evil or forbidden anymore, then things start to get flat and boring. :-) Not that the show is flat and boring. But as you say, I think sometimes people start to get a little tired of "He's not evil, he's just misunderstood!"

[maidenjedi]

I think Cora is evil. Pure evil. But...who knows where they'll go with that.

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

Well, so far at least Cora is just unapologetic evil, and I'm loving it. While I do love the complicated, "grey" villains, as you put it, I actually would like to see a Regina embrace her bad side and put a bit more cackle in her evil. Her "greyness" annoys me in a way no one else's on the show does. (I honestly think she would have been better cast as Snow White. I think she's a ringer for the Disney cartoon version.)

PS: I loved the ending of Lost! Michael Emerson started me off on a cascade of tears for the whole last 20 minutes of that episode ... and beyond. Ironically, I absolutely hated Ben Linus with a passion until that jaw-dropping moment in Season 4 when I wanted to jump inside my TV set and hug him. Going back and rewatching all the episodes before shed a whole new light on him, and I fell madly in love with his ambiguous snarkiness. It's a thin line, and I loved it because I was so ready to stop watching after they got rid of Charlie! Yet another 20 minutes of uncontrollable sobbing. (And the irony is who ordered him to be killed--and who was supposed to carry it out!)

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

well, what makes the best bad guy?...
a) someone with a good reason for wanting to kill the other guy.
b) someone who throws a dart at a board and fights against whomever's name the dart hit.
c) someone just following orders.
d) someone forced (by magic or other means) to fight and kill the other guy.

the only one of those we haven't seen in OUAT is b.

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Well, you can't say Killian Jones was a nice guy before meeting Milha & Rumple. I mean, he was a pirate, most likely ruthless, stealing other men's wives, scaring poor Rumpel...
Losing Milha & his hand just gave him a goal and a worst nemesis

[mirasango.livejournal.com]

I'm having a hard time feeling any sympathy as well for his wife. We don't know the whole story but he did seem to be trying to make it work. She seemed more concerned she was stuck with a loser and didn't give one thought to her son.

I probably would have felt something more for her if they had handled it differntly like she was kidnapped by the pirates and Hook found her on the ship after the fact and they fell in love or something.

As it stands now Hook is handsome, but eh. When she died I was like eh

Still Team Rumple.

[vikingwriter.livejournal.com]

So long as it doesn't end up like Lost with five years of building up and introducing and 30 seconds of resolution. I just want to know that on some wall of the Writer's Room, there is a chart with all our first-season characters and their stories and that eventually they will get told. Then they can introduce all the new people they want. Because, really, I can't handle another polar bear on a tropical island. I just can't.

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

I loved every minute of Lost (well, except for the first half of Season 2 where they just seemed to be filling time and adding way too many characters, who all ended up getting pointlessly killed off but one!). But I'm totally with you on this:

"I just want to know that on some wall of the Writer's Room, there is a chart with all our first-season characters and their stories and that eventually they will get told."

[tony-roxy.livejournal.com]

Did anyone catch the preview for next week's episode? Or are we not allowed to talk about that yet? I'm not sure how the rules work for this community.

Mod response

[hughville.livejournal.com]

You can talk about it tomorrow night. We have a 24 hour wait period after the show airs to talk about spoilers.

[hughville.livejournal.com]

Tonight's episode was really good. I like that they introduce these characters who are neither all good or all bad but a mix. All the characters are flawed and very human. It's one reason I love the show so much.

Rumple's wife....I've never understood women who walk away from their children so I didn't feel much sympathy for her.

The addition of Hook should be interesting since he is in league with Cora. It will be nice to see Rumple going up against someone besides Regina.

Having Belle run the library makes sense. It will be interesting to see how things go with Rumple and her since Rumple really hasn't changed. Again, another of those traits that make the characters so real. He wants Belle and to be the person she believes he can be but he can't get go of the magic that makes him so powerful.

I missed Emma. :(

[lorelaisquared.livejournal.com]

I missed Emma too. I'm loving all the new characters this year but I feel like it's starting to get a bit stretched and it's harder for them to balance the storytelling. I thought they did well with that last week, but I don't like having one entire timeline not even touched on.

[maidenjedi]

MR. SMEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was seriously my favorite part.

But aside from that - I enjoyed it quite a bit. No, not fond of Mila, but I was still relieved that Hook and his crew weren't abusing her.

Interesting to me that Baelfire was so totally abandoned by his parents. And undoubtedly, he retained his memory of that - I would venture to guess he may even know that Mila didn't die at Hook's hand. If not, well, then he thinks his mother died at the hands of a pirate and he already knew what his father became.

I would love to know the Peter Pan side of Hook's story in this world. :-)

Also - Moe French, asshole.

Finally - Ruby/Red, still badass.

[pwalkeri.livejournal.com]

I think out of everyone, Bael got the worst deal. Both his parents abandoned him for selfish reasons.

I'm wondering if Bael ends up being Peter Pan. I mean, was there any confirmation that Bael was sent into OUR world, or just ANOTHER world?

[lorelaisquared.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed this episode, especially Belle's journey and how she evolved from blindly believing Gold had changed to standing up for herself against Gold and her idiot Father and claiming her independence. Also, I talked about it a bit more in my personal episode commentary (http://lorelaisquared.livejournal.com/131001.html) but I found it interesting that Gold specifically stated that he was trying to break this "new curse". I'm wondering how significant this is. Like is there another curse at play? Did Regina do it? Did someone else? Is that why they're still in Storybrooke?

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

I think the "new curse" is their not being able to leave Storybrooke with their memories intact, so if Rumple left to find his son, he wouldn't know him anymore.

[rpowell.livejournal.com]

I can't muster any like for Rumple's first wife. I have no sympathy for her choice to leave her son. Honestly, I did not care when she died and as a result, I had a hard time with Hook and his whole revenge motivation.


Was Rumplestiltskin any better? He was supposed to follow Bae into a land without magic and chickened out in the end. I'm giving Mila leeway because she admitted that leaving Bae was cowardly and a mistake, just as I'm giving Rumple leeway because he also regretted his action. But he failed to tell Belle the detailed circumstances behind his abandonment of Bae.



Funny, I was just giving a talk last night where I said that if nothing is truly evil or forbidden anymore . . .


Nothing is ever truly evil or forbidden. Stories like that bore me senseless. I find them one-dimensional.

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

"Was Rumplestiltskin any better? He was supposed to follow Bae into a land without magic and chickened out in the end. I'm giving Mila leeway because she admitted that leaving Bae was cowardly and a mistake, just as I'm giving Rumple leeway because he also regretted his action. But he failed to tell Belle the detailed circumstances behind his abandonment of Bae."

Well, Rumple didn't want to go in the first place, and he said so, but Bae practically dragged him into the forest, but Rumple went because he loved his son. And he almost followed him through the scary vortex but chickened out at the last minute (his fatal flaw, cowardice, striking again at that precise moment), and he let go. And immediately regretted it. I felt so sorry for him digging around in the dirt there, crying, "Bae! I want to go with you!" That's a lot different from cheating on your husband with a pirate and making a premeditated decision to leave both him and your son.

And I was pleased that Belle and Rumple had the nice long talk that they did. I was surprised it went on as long as it did after last season's rushed reunion in the finale. This seemed real and heartfelt. I'm sure if they didn't have so many other characters to deal with in every episode, he'd have told her more, and I'm predicting he will at some point in the future when we finally get another Rumbelle-centric episode from Jane Espenson.

[carlier36.livejournal.com]

I loved this episode - it's by far my favorite episode so far this season! I've felt like this season had been a bit weak up until now with trying to balance all the different storylines and although it was a shame to not see three of the main characters this week, I confess I prefer focusing on one or two main stories to jumping all over the place like last week.

Just like 'Skin Deep,' this one was a wonderful insight into Rumple's past and just how far he'll go when he's pushed. I think in terms of the evil vs. misunderstood argument, this episode actually made Rumple a bit less sympathetic. Although, no, I don't have much sympathy for Mila, the fact that he murdered his own wife shows us that although he can be charming and does know how to love, he can also be brutal and ruthless.

Also, Hook is a fabulous addition to the story and it's great to have someone not only in league with Cora but with a personal vendetta against Rumple rather than just someone wanting revenge for the fallout from his many deals.

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

I agree with you 100% on this, carlier36!!!

[norringtons.livejournal.com]

I have to disagree slightly with everyone saying what Mila did was terrible, in leaving Bae. Rumple wasn't any better, and honestly his abandonment of Bae was far worse. You could tell from Mila she knew what she had done was terrible, and had to live with that.

It should also should said that in FTL, it seems like "true love" there is highly prized and valued above everything. It seems everyone is searching for it and trying to find it, and I can't fault Mila exactly for leaving and wanting to be with Hook, because in FTL, everyone does whatever they very well pleases to get their true love. (Look at what Regina has done for goodness sakes!)

[bloodysuicide69.livejournal.com]

Nice reasoning! If I weren't a mother and getting way too personal about it I would agree with your stance.

[rpowell.livejournal.com]

I loved this episode - it's by far my favorite episode so far this season! I've felt like this season had been a bit weak up until now with trying to balance all the different storylines and although it was a shame to not see three of the main characters this week, I confess I prefer focusing on one or two main stories to jumping all over the place like last week.


The second episode is still my favorite, but this was pretty good. I disagree with you about this Season. The three different timelines have not made it difficult for me, one bit. And honestly, I'm finding it easier to follow the series, than I did during the first half of Season 1.

[bloodysuicide69.livejournal.com]

Learning curve? lol

I like how they are balancing the storylines. I miss seeing Emma and Snow together but I'm sure we'll get our episode of them next time. The Doctor episode!

[badforthefish.livejournal.com]

Great episode! The exchange: "what's the name of the land we're headed Cap'tain?" "Neverland" gave me chills. I hope we get to see Neverland (insert obvious Michael Jackson's joke here.)

I must be in the minority who liked Mila and was sorry to see her die so soon. I don't think True Love was any excuse for the way she behaved with her family but it sure made her an interesting character. She dreamt of a life of adventure and instead was lumbered with a cowardly husband and a kid she may not have wanted. Not everybody is tailored for parenthood, but when a woman doesn't give 110% for her child that makes her a monster. How fair is that? A child would not have been safe on a pirate ship, she knew this. She made a choice: to live the life *she* wanted, and I think it took guts.

So yeah, I'm sorry she was killed off so soon. She would have been a great vessel to explore the nature of sacrifice vs selfish motives.

I'm glad Belle gets a chance to gain some independence, and I like that Rumple is really trying to become a better person. I think pure evil gets tedious after a while. It lacks layers. I'm also glad that Regina is torn by her affection towards Henry, though I would hate for her to become a total 'good guy'.

Hook is a bit too pretty boy for my taste. I would have liked him older and grittier. He looks like a Halloween pirate with too much mascara.

[wake-the-dragon.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about Mila. She was an interesting character and they killed her off way to soon (and I was annoyed that they fridged her at that).

I agree about Belle and Rumple too.

[arien-elensar.livejournal.com]

I agree, interesting take concerning mila's decision.
However, I don't mind Hook pretty ;)
Definitely my favorite episode so far.

[tamlover.livejournal.com]

The episode was mostly very dull to me, though it did pick up after Milah showed up to save Hook.

Milah was pretty much what I expected her to be. Slightly more sympathetic, actually, since she try to compromise - wanted to relocate. I already expected the derision and kid-abandoning. Note that Rumpel did not kill her for abandoning Bae - he killed her for saying she never loved him.

Belle was ghastly. I was so proud of her for standing up and tell her father and Rumpelstiltskin to shove off, and then she totally caved. That library scene was so "abuser comes bearing apologies and flowers" to me. Unfortunately, Belle just gets worse and worse to me.

Since Rumpel said he'd not realize the power of true love, does anyone think it possible that True Love's Kiss was not yet a magical curse-breaker at that time?

Smee was an absolute idiot for bringing up the "cowardly" bit to the Dark one.

Hook didn't do much to draw my interest, I admit, but I will say he was brave. Quite willing to face the Dark One for Milah's sake. Milah was actually brave regarding her physical safety, too. Didn't work out too well for either of them.

[wake-the-dragon.livejournal.com]

Since Rumpel said he'd not realize the power of true love, does anyone think it possible that True Love's Kiss was not yet a magical curse-breaker at that time?

Possibly but we've seen curses from later in the timeline that can't be broken by True Love's Kiss; Midas' daughter's kiss wan't able to turn her boyfriend back from goal, and the childlessness curse King George put on Snow couldn't be broken by Charming kissing her.

[rpowell.livejournal.com]

Belle was ghastly. I was so proud of her for standing up and tell her father and Rumpelstiltskin to shove off, and then she totally caved. That library scene was so "abuser comes bearing apologies and flowers" to me. Unfortunately, Belle just gets worse and worse to me.


I don't think that Rumpelstiltskin is "the abuser" in this story. I think Belle might proved to be one. She knew what he was liked back in Fairy Tale Land, but fell in love with him anyway. Her only anger at him seemed to be his tendency to emotionally push her away.

Yet, in Storybrooke, she's pulling the "either you become a goody two-shoes" or we can never be a couple. I get the feeling that she is emotionally manipulating him into being the man she wants him to be, instead of loving him for himself, or despite himself. In the end, I feel that it's not a healthy way to deal with a romance.