Question Post for Lady of the Lake

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I have a review of the episode at my journal: Lady of the Lake.

And here are my questions/discussion points for episode...

1. Is Lancelot actually dead??? I know Cora said she killed him long ago but, if we know anything about her, we know she lies. I was looking forward to having him as a recurring character in post apocalyptic FTL and now he's gone before we even got to know him. I'm rather done with potentially interesting male characters getting killed off as soon as we meet them.

2. Why did Coralot want Mulan to go along with Snow and Emma? Because she really is their best warrior and she wanted to make sure that Snow found the portal she was looking for? (Before killing her off.) Or did she want Mulan out of the way for some reason? Possibly also because Mulan was their best warrior...

3. Do you think it has sunk in yet for Emma that Snow is REALLY badass and she should listen to her mother's advice? *g* Emma was completely bullheaded in this episode but it seems to me as though she had a real breakthrough at the end and won't be acting out her anger issues so much in the future. Also, I'm sure having her mom kill an ogre right in front of her helped in the 'I'll listen to mom' category.

4. So...Leviathan. The writers are complete trolls and are apparently cackling and rubbing their hands with glee over Whale's identity. Of course, it would probably work better if ABC didn't release half the episode before hand.

5. Oh Lancelot, I guess propping up a greedy and vindictive king is an okay thing to do but to keep someone from having children is the most HORRIBLE thing ever. Hmmm, not buying it. (And I say this as someone who has dealt with infertility.) I think I'll have to go with the idea that no one, except Regina, can look at Snow's sad face and not have a change of heart. Everyone must love her.

6. Though in FTL being able to have children of your own seems to be even a much bigger deal than it is here. It is a big deal here (hence all the fertility clinics) but there not having love or losing love, either romantic or familial, seems to send people right over the edge. Just look at Regina or Snow without her memories of Charming or King George.

7. Can we now take it as canon that King George was basically a good, if flawed, man before James was killed? I'm willing to do so. He has now stated it explicitly that he loved James as his son and that his whole issue with Charming is that he is not James while also reminding George of the fact that James is gone.

8. Were Cora and King George involved in some way? I don't believe they will be revealed to have been married (at least she will not be the beloved wife he talks about) or that Cora is the one who took the original infertility potion but we have a king who loves gold and a miller's daughter here. I do see a possible connection. And Cora is a good possibility for a scorned woman who George cast aside to marry his True Love. She would have no compunctions about cursing someone.

9. Furthermore, about the infertility curse, I thought True Love's Kiss could break any curse? I mean, it can break the Curse to End All Curses and the Dark One curse. These are heavy duty curses which you would think would require something more than a simple kiss. If one can build into a curse immunity against the kiss why not do that more often? The sleeping curse would be a hell of a lot more effective if one couldn't kiss it away.

10. King George looks very angry while watching Charming and Henry sparring. It puts me in mind of Regina when she saw David and Mary Margaret kissing last season. I'm thinking that this is the beginning of a complicated vengeance plot on George's part. The man cannot let it go. Ever. However, Charming needs his own nemesis since Regina is Snow's so I guess it works from a plot standpoint.

11. Ogres: blind, really big, fast, and to kill them you have to shoot them directly in the eye. Yes, these are the sort of creatures that we should send fourteen year old children off to fight. I'm sure they are all expert archers. Considering that Rumpel's lord had the Dark One at his beck and call, what are the odds that the Ogre War was a way to keep the populace in line? Rumpel ended it first thing with a snap of his fingers so Zoso certainly could have as well.

12. And the wardrobe ashes. Obviously these are going to come in VERY handy in helping Cora over to Storybrooke. I wonder what sort of trouble she is going to stir up when she arrives. (Which I think will happen some time before Emma and Snow make it back.)

Comments

[wolfgenes.livejournal.com]

personally, i don't think cora really killed lancelot. i think he's being kept prisoner somewhere, like regina did to belle. (which is the whole theory behind my mulan/lancelot fic js 8D) and those were very interesting points!~

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I hope so! I mean we have no reason to believe Cora any more than we would believe Regina.

[tellshannon815.livejournal.com]

That's what I already believed about King George from day one, that a lot of his issues with Charming were around the fact that he wasn't James. In fact I even wrote that here:

http://tellshannon815.livejournal.com/239547.html#comments

I think that's what a lot of people forget when it comes to King George.

I hadn't ever thought of putting King George with Cora - I do still believe that she was dumped by a king though.

As far as the kissing thing goes, Peter's kiss never broke Red's curse, although I know there is the argument that he wasn't her true love.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

It just must be very difficult to watch someone walk around looking like your child and pretending to be your child (even if that was your idea) all alive while your child lies dead. Based on how he is with Charming we could assume him to be a terrible father but I don't think it has anything to do with his relationship with James.

George and Cora seem to fit! And it's good way to tie George into the larger narrative.

True, Peter did not break Red's curse but I have to agree that since we don't know if they had true love we can't say true love's kiss wouldn't work. I rather wonder if the writers have worked out even the broad strokes on what true love's kiss can do and what it can't.

[seldonp38.livejournal.com]

"Do you think it has sunk in yet for Emma that Snow is REALLY badass and she should listen to her mother's advice? *g* Emma was completely bullheaded in this episode but it seems to me as though she had a real breakthrough at the end and won't be acting out her anger issues so much in the future. Also, I'm sure having her mom kill an ogre right in front of her helped in the 'I'll listen to mom' category."


While they're in Fairy Tale Land, sure. But once they get back? I don't know. After all, Snow White is not an experienced parent. Charming is certainly proving this.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Yeah, we'll see! I don't expect her to really defer to Snow in general but to be willing to listen and acknowledge when she has a point is a good place for them to be. (Even if Emma was acting out in this episode, she isn't a child and doesn't really need parenting. Henry does so I hope Charming can step up.)

[lorelaisquared.livejournal.com]

1. I don't think he's actually dead either. Cora is not trustworthy and we didn't see her kill him so I think we can rightly guess that he *could* be alive still either elsewhere in FTL or even in Storybrooke.

2. Oh I hadn't thought of that. Why DID she want Mulan gone? Makes me kinda fear for what they're going to find when they get back to the "haven"

3. I think they made some progress on the Emma listening to Snow front.

4. Ugh I'm getting really annoyed by ABC's sneak peaks. I've started to avoid them on purpose because I feel like they give away half the episode, and they're often key scenes and it takes away from my enjoyment of the show. I wish they'd just stick with traditional trailers that hint at what's coming but in no way gives it away.

6. I think having children IS even more important in FTL. Being able to pass on your legacy seems to be a crucial thing. And almost every story we've seen involves parent/child relationships in some way. In fact, I can't even think of a single fairytale (either covered on the show so far or not) that doesn't have that familial connection in some way. Hmm.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. Yep. No body and I'm not going to take it as a given.

2. She specifically wanted Mulan gone which makes me nervous too. Is Cora evil enough to wipe everyone out and salt the earth now that she's been unmasked? I guess we'll find out soon!

4. I can avoid them on some episodes - like this one I didn't watch any. However, once they are out there are gifs and screencaps all over the place so I did see some things anyway. When it comes to Rumpel scenes I have less self control and can never resist them. But with his scenes I'm happy to watch them many times so it doesn't detract too much! I still would like less so I don't need any self control. :)

[lorelaisquared.livejournal.com]

1. Exactly

2. Yeah, not to mention that Philip was presumably the only remaining monarch there. I hope Cora didn't do that, but I wouldn't put it past her. I think she's more evil than Regina ever was.

4. I don't mind the gifs as much because they don't give quite as much away about the tone of the performances and stuff, besides, on tumblr I can just scroll past stuff quickly if I don't want to look too closely. Still it would be nice if they cut back on them. 4 1.5 minute clips a week is rather a lot.

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

This may be a stupid question, but when Emma says "You gave all this up for me," what is she talking about? Snow and Charming didn't give up Fairy Tale Land voluntarily, they were whisked away from it against their will. I keep thinking I must be missing something there . . .

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

I thought that was a reference back to Emma and Snow's conversation about how the options were to send Emma away uncursed, or to keep the family together & be cursed together.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I don't think you are really missing anything. Perhaps this was Emma's way of releasing that her mother was willing to give anything up for her. Or that by sending her through the wardrobe Snow knew she would never be able to get Emma's childhood back but did it anyway to save everyone.

[bloodysuicide69.livejournal.com]

She did follow it up by saying "I couldn't let her get to Henry".

So I think she meant that she finally understand how Snow COULD give her up and be separated as a consequence. Emma and Henry are separated and their potential way to get back is gone because Emma had to keep evil away from Henry.

It was like her A-HA moment as to WHY Snow would give her up.

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

>1.
I think Lancelot is still alive...just not in FTL at the moment. remember, Cora's taunt of "a land still needs its heroes" (which probably was intended to sting, given she said it to Snow White, whom many regarded as a hero)

>5. Oh Lancelot, I guess propping up a greedy and vindictive king is an okay thing to do
??
Didn't they basically call Lancelot a hired hand? (or something a bit politer than a merc)

>6.
Um, pretty sure King George told Charming (and Midas?) that George's kingdom was pretty close to being financially bankrupt - hence the importance of that alliance with King Midas.

>7.
I can agree that King George was a good, if flawed, man while James was alive. I think what sent him over the edge was not Charming per se...it was Charming's double-cross (first agreeing to pose as James, kill the dragon and marry Midas' daughter - then running away, thereby negating the alliance with Midas)

>9.
>If one can build into a curse immunity against the kiss why not do that more often?
Possibly for the same reason that giving antibiotics too often, builds tougher bacteria.

That, or its a sign of just how heavy-duty the kiss-proof things are. (or its a different family of magic)

11. Ogres: blind, really big, fast, and to kill them you have to shoot them directly in the eye.

> Yes, these are the sort of creatures that we should send fourteen year old children off to fight.
those were the only ones left to recruit. (aside from crippled people like Rumplestiltskin, and the elderly)

and I have a feeling that these Ogres are not at full strength, militarily or magically; these are a pale shadow of their power during the Wars.

> Considering that Rumpel's lord had the Dark One at his beck and call, what are the odds that the Ogre War was a way to keep the populace in line?
Zoso, like Rumplestiltskin, doesn't strike me as the sort to volunteer magical acts -- grants the requests and wishes made of him, sure.

> Rumpel ended it first thing with a snap of his fingers so Zoso certainly could have as well.
I have a feeling that the Ogres' red sky has a role in things...a hunch.

also, bear in mind that the Ogres were *still* a danger when Belle's agreed to go with Rumplestiltskin.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. I do hope he is still alive. There is a lot that can be done with the character and it would be nice to know he has a future and not just a past.

5. He is a hired hand but one who has no trouble being hired by George knowing that he is sending men to kill Charming's mother or capture (and possibly) kill Snow White. It's only when George keeps her from having kids that he decides things have gone TOO FAR for him.

6. They may not have a lot of money but George's problems with Charming go FAR beyond the money. He is now on vendetta and he has made it clear that most of his problems with Charming have to do with him not being James. With the loss of his son.

9. Yeah, I have no idea but I hope that as the show goes on they get into some of what makes curses immune.

11. We see a number of able bodied adults in the village when they come to take the girl. And I doubt this is the only village so there are some adults and not only children/others too weak to fight. I do agree that most of the able bodied people of around twenty were probably lost but 14 year olds are not ever going to be able to do much.

As for Zoso, he doesn't have to volunteer - the lord needs to order it. Even though I can see him slipping through the cracks in the words, it seems as though the lord was not trying very hard if all we see the Dark One doing is terrorizing parents.

good points

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

>5. He is a hired hand but one who has no trouble being hired by George knowing that he is sending men to kill Charming's mother or capture (and possibly) kill Snow White.
O.o
What do you think he did for King Arthur? ;)
(he fought Arthur's enemies, whether Lancelot knew them or not)

>It's only when George keeps her from having kids that he decides things have gone TOO FAR for him
I'm confused - are you upset that Lancelot has a moral line in the sand, or are you upset that Lancelot is employed? (what did you think medieval kings used hired guns for?)

>6. They may not have a lot of money but George's problems with Charming go FAR beyond the money. He is now on vendetta and he has made it clear that most of his problems with Charming have to do with him not being James. With the loss of his son.
Yes, he is on vendetta now. Not sure why you think James' death is why George is on vendetta against Charming.

*i goes to watch the ep*

>We see a number of able bodied adults in the village when they come to take the girl.
I admit, that was puzzling...after all, if you're fighting a war for your very survival, you won't stop people with asthma or flat feet from joining the fight. (wait, we did - WW2)

...or it may have been as simple as not letting the non-fighting youths and elders starve before they can be recruited.

>it seems as though the lord was not trying very hard if all we see the Dark One doing is terrorizing parents.
Granted, the only time we see Zoso in his role as Dark One, is during a bit of conscription.

(given Rumplestiltskin's age, probably the only people who might remember Zoso...are the older Fairies)

Re: good points

[chloris.livejournal.com]

5. Well, it's just that the Round Table seems to command a certain amount of respect in FTL. Snow certainly has a high opinion of it. So there I would expect that Lancelot would have been in a situation which he considered honorable and be following a man who he worthy of his loyalty. I do find there to be a difference in joining a noble company and taking money from the highest bidder. However, once he took the money, he didn't seem to have any trouble with George sending men to attack and kill old ladies. That's just my interpretation.

I don't particularly care why a medieval king would hire a mercenary, but I do wonder why ending someone's fertility while leaving them alive is worse than killing people. Why that line? It's odd to me.

6. It just seems to me that losing true love or even the hope of true love (either a child or a lover) is a much bigger deal to FTL people than it is even to us. Some can get past it but if they have reasons to dwell on it, it seems to unhinge them and make them obsessive.

Re: good points

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

>So there I would expect that Lancelot would have been in a situation which he considered honorable and be following a man who he worthy of his loyalty.
That probably depends on how Lancelot left the Round Table in FTL.

...all the men worthy of his loyalty, were probably friends of Arthur (or didn't want to antagonize Arthur)

>I don't particularly care why a medieval king would hire a mercenary,
I do - George's kingdom was on the verge of bankruptcy...so this means someone's financing George's hunt.

> but I do wonder why ending someone's fertility while leaving them alive is worse than killing people.
It means their name will end, and there will not be much memory of them. (that and most of the fairytales come from times where lineage was of great importance - even in the lower social strata)

...that, and-or a measure of "now you'll know what I went through, Charming".

>6.
I would guess that it's a combination of tv's fascination with what some call "Twu Luv"...and how a lot of both fairytales (those that don't end horribly) and riddle stories, end with a couple or a family who are happy in their situation & happy they are together.

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

okay...here (http://rodlox.livejournal.com/539663.html) are the lines relevant to the deal between Charming and George.

the interesting thing is, Charming says he agreed because he couldn't let the kingdom (or his mom) suffer...yet by running away, he did exactly that.

[katiemariie.livejournal.com]

1. I don't think Lancelot is really dead mainly because we didn't see him die.

5. My theory is that Lancelot took the job believing that it was about retrieving Charming to restore the line of succession which would make the kingdom more stable. Then when King George curses Snow, Lancelot realizes that the King is interested only in revenge, which is very bad for the kingdom and its people.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

5. I can get behind that theory. Maybe George finessed the truth when talking to Lancelot. So sending people to Ruth's cabin was an attempt to reason with Charming and grabbing Snow was a try to convince Charming to talk to them. It is possible. Or we are supposed to see Lancelot as a bitter, angry man who doesn't care when George hires him and it's only Snow's sad face that shows him the light. :)

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

that theory makes sense - given the importance that pretty much every parent of their generation (inshow onscreen) has placed on family and continuity, there wouldn't have been a reason for Lancelot to think King George was otherwise...until the poisoning scene.

as for if Lancelot is alive...I think he's more alive than Prince Phillip.

[earthspirits.livejournal.com]

I'm also of the thought that Cora lied about killing Lancelot and that he's most probably alive and well in Storybrooke (certainly hope so).

And I certainly agree that Cora and George most probably have a complicated back history with each, and that's it's not pretty.

As for those orges ~ I'm with Rumple: Any normal person of intelligence would run from those things. What indeed could 14 year old boys and girls with no military training do against those? For that matter, Pre-Dark One Rumple, a gentle and sensitive soul trained to the weaving arts, would certainly not be able to fight those things. Not cowardice to run away from being drafted into an hopeless cause, but common sense! And I like your notion that the overlord of the kingdom Rumple lived in was using it against the people, surely the original Dark One (Zozo) could have destroyed the orges if his overlord had willed it? Interesting concept!

As for Dr. Whale, I'm pretty certain I know who he's supposed to be, based on all of the clues recently dropped, and a certain theory that's making the rounds.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

There is nothing canon yet about Cora and George but I love the idea! It works.

It wouldn't be the first time that a leader has used war (or threat of war) to keep the people in line. We don't know enough about the politics of the region but clearly untrained peasants and teenagers are little better than speed bumps to ogres.

I have a feeling who he is supposed to be too (even though I've been trying to avoid those particular spoilers) but I found it funny that Lancelot was described as a monster from the deep which seems a bit dialog designed to fool us.

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

>but I found it funny that Lancelot was described as a monster from the deep
I thought it was a reference to "can you hook leviathan" and how Leviathan is supposed to be unmovable and impenetrable.

...which would have been a hint (FINALLY!) as to just what do the FTL people read.

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

>surely the original Dark One (Zozo) could have destroyed the orges if his overlord had willed it?
That's assuming the Ogres were unprotected against attacks.

there's a difference between one loner (like Snow killed) and an army big enough to turn the sky red.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

All true. However, I keep coming back to Rumpelstiltskin getting his power and immediately ending the war. (Possibly for a very long time if the next ogre war was when Granny was young - some centuries later according to interviews.) This says that the Dark One can do it if he wants and that it probably isn't even very difficult for him.

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

>This says that the Dark One can do it if he wants and that it probably isn't even very difficult for him
I agree.

The problem is, even if Zoso had wanted to end the Ogre Wars, the local ruler had power over Zoso - he had Zoso's blade&name.

(though, maybe there's another limit...but how could we tell when the {post-Zoso} Dark One is stopping Rumplestiltskin from doing something Rumplestiltskin wants to do?)

[bloodysuicide69.livejournal.com]

1. I'm of two minds about this: While yes she could have just disposed of him.... I don't think she does those kinds of things without some sort of thought. She knows when someone could be of value. Lancelot would definitely be a valuable person to keep around. Also, I believe that a scene with Cora and Lancelot fighting and his death would be something the writers would want to hash out for us to see, not just say it and be done with it. In any case, I'm pretty sure he'll show up at least in the Past FTL scenes. I'm definitely with you though. I'm basically losing hope that male characters of any significance will will last long in the show. Unless they are evil, I suppose.

3. I think she does believe her mom is badass.... I think the bigger revelation is that Snow has her best interest at heart. She was acting so asshat in the episode because she thought she had to fend for herself. Then she realized at the end that Snow was looking out for her at all costs.

4. Can you explain more about this? Lancelot's "scary name" was Leviathan... so how does this correlate to Whale? Unless somehow he's part of the round table too? Not sure how I feel about what I just said... he did tell Charming "Your not my king" So could Arthur be his king? Also, I have no problem with ABC's hints because they give me something to live with for 6 torturous days. :)

5. I did not understand George and Lancelot's relationship at all. Brought Snow to him, but if he does anything to her, all bets are off... really? Also, coming from someone who has dealt with/dealing with infertility.... Snow didn't really do it for me. I know what it feels like to think you'll never have kids and I also know what it feels like to finally have it happen.... and she didn't portray any of it. Perhaps at the end a little when the pendent moved... but... nope. I didn't feel the true agony of it from her. Maybe because it's too personal for me.



7&8: King George was probably a good person before James died, yes. I will believe this as canon. I do think that Cora had something to do with King George's pain. Don't really know why, I just got the sense of it the moment he mentioned it. Either she was the cursed one and he cast her aside to have his own family with someone else, or she left to find a cure and became evil in the process, or she was the scorned woman and cursed his love. I don't know, but her evil little head is in that story somehow, (i think).

9. Good idea. I don't know why infertility isn't cured with the True Love spell breaker. I mean, it didn't take away the Midas touch... So I think it does have some draw backs. I would like to review the master list of spells & curses that True Love's kiss can break, tyvm.

10. I really feel like this all plays into Regina turns good plot they have going. George, Cora, Rumple. They are all on the side of "bad"... and they are all pretty powerful in their own respects. The "good" side is going to need a little more punch if they aren't going to get mopped by the Evil doers. So, naturally, one of them flips sides. How convenient. Not that I think Regina can keep it up forever. Snow is gone for the time being, perhaps when she comes back her hate and vengeance will come back with it. I don't think that 28+ years of hate just goes away with a revelation that "i don't want to be like mom!"

12. Interesting that you think Cora will go to SB before Emma and Snow. I am fairly confident that Cora will be in SB at some point, but I always figured it might be during a piggy back ride with Snow and Emma... not before. But it's entirely possible.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. It is interesting watching a show where the male characters seem to all end up being fridged! We are so used to it with female characters that to see it done for the men makes it very noticeable I think.

4. It's just that Lancelot was Leviathan was described as the new general whose battle prowess is so outstanding he strikes without warning like a monster from the depths of the sea. Which sounds like a Whale to me! *g* I don't think Whale has any actual connection to Lancelot beyond this attempt of the writers to troll us.

5. In Snow's defense she only knew for a day. It takes some time for the realization to sink it properly. But, yeah, it was a pretty shallow plot line which is problem with plots that are introduced and resolved within an episode. I also find it a problem with some of the love stories. They are WAY too quick. (Oh, and *hugs* on dealing with infertility. I do understand! We took four years for a child and gave up on having a second pretty quick. I just couldn't do it anymore.)

7&8 All I could think when King George talked about the infertility curse was that some really hated him. And we know that no one does hate like the Mills family. It also would explain some of Cora's obsession with making Regina a queen since in Cora's mind Regina should have been a queen.

10. Blue (if she gets her fairy dust back) is a powerful force on the 'good guys' side. And I wouldn't be surprised if Rumpel also decides to actively support Charming - partly for Belle and partly because he's stuck with him.

12. Now that she has the dust and Snow/Emma still have nothing I wouldn't be surprised if she figures out the way back first. It would be the perfect opportunity for Cora to stir up trouble and cause problems before anyone knows enough to stop her. Assuming she can still shapeshift in Storybrooke!