ABC Once Upon A Time

1. What do you like about Belle?

Everything. I admire her as a better person than I am. Kind, sincere, intelligent (well, okay, I'm no dummy but I'm not as quick on my feet,) and able to see the good in people before the bad.

2. What do you wish was different about her?

Nothing! Well, she can maybe be too forgiving of people who don't deserve it, and not vengeful enough. If she had just let Rumple kill Zelena, he wouldn't have lied.

3. What was your reaction when Regina had told Rumplestiltskin that Belle was dead?

That she was obviously lying.

4. What was your reaction when Regina revealed Belle was in the asylum beneath the hospital?

"OMG she is so fucked when he finds out!" - Actual quote.

5. Given how Season 3 ended with she and Mr. Gold getting married, knowing he's already lied with regard to Zelena, what do you want to see in Season 4?

She needs to find out that he lied, hopefully not in a way that puts her in imminent danger, and they need to have a real heart-to-heart about his habits and work it out between them. Although I am in the minority where I think it was too much of her to ask him not to kill Zelena in the first place, knowing how much his son meant to him and knowing that she basically killed him. That was also her step-son and friend. So showing Zelena mercy was, IMO, too much.

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2. What do you wish was different about her?

Nothing! Well, she can maybe be too forgiving of people who don't deserve it, and not vengeful enough. If she had just let Rumple kill Zelena, he wouldn't have lied.

Funny logic and morality, but I like that. You gave me a chuckle this morning!

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LOL! Like I said, Belle is nicer than I am. XD

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You sound so much like me!

Well, she can maybe be too forgiving of people who don't deserve it, and not vengeful enough. If she had just let Rumple kill Zelena, he wouldn't have lied.

I so totally agree. Real-life morals put aside, Zelena is someone who tortured him and killed his son, would have killed a baby, and was planning on basically erasing half of their lives from existence. I was cheering for him to murder her the whole freaking time and had, ironically, written a fic where he used the dagger (though no change to porcelain). Of course, I also cheered when he killed Tamara and was not really all that upset that he offed Milah either as she was horribly abusive).

Although I am in the minority where I think it was too much of her to ask him not to kill Zelena in the first place, knowing how much his son meant to him and knowing that she basically killed him. That was also her step-son and friend. So showing Zelena mercy was, IMO, too much.

This this this! I always feel like I'm in the minority too. I HATED that her first reaction was not "Rumple you've been through so much, let's go cry together and talk about how to get you through all of this, I'm here for you" but instead "Promise me you won't kill the woman who tortured you for a year and killed your son." I was SO MAD about that.

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I don't think the problem is that Rumple killed Zelena, I think the problem is that he flat-out lied to Belle about it. Not only that, but he used her love and trust in him to make her think that she held the dagger. I mean...if I were in Belle's shoes I don't know what it would take for me to forgive someone who betrayed my trust and played me for a fool like that.

The issue is that Rumple has a problem with lying. He and Belle cannot have a healthy relationship if he keeps lying to her and doing whatever he wants anyway. Like, he could just as easily have told Belle that there was no way he could let Zelena live after what she'd done to him and his son. No, Belle wouldn't have been happy about it, but she would have understood, and would have gotten over it eventually.

But no, because Rumple is incapable of having an honest conversation with Belle. He's been lying to her again and again from the very start, and the writers seriously need to have her angrily confront him about this.

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I don't feel like that's quite true. He lied to her in Broken. He refused to tell her the truth about why he needed magic in the Crocodile and what did she do? She left him. And told him she never wanted to see him again.

His reaction? He told her the truth. Rumple clearly had NO idea what to do with someone who loved him and who actually wanted to be with him (see: Milah, see: Cora). But he managed to overcome his need to be closed up to everyone and tell her the truth. Past that I can't recall his lying to her. By the time the Outsider rolled around, it seemed like they had a pretty stable relationship. And we see that in other episodes (the picnic date at his shop, the hamburger date). And then they were constantly separated and torn apart, but even during that he had some honest things to say to her (the phone conversation when he thought he was dying, his belief in their love when he sent her the sand dollar hologram, his telling her the only future he saw was the one when they were together). I think he had come to believe that she really wouldn't leave him and had learned to be honest with her.

And then he goes through hell. He leaves her for what he believes is a suicide mission. He faces down the father that abandoned him in a heinous way and helps to save his grandson. He gets everything he ever wanted for like 2 seconds. And then finds out his father has tricked them all and plans to kill Belle and his son and enslave everyone else. And he kills HIMSELF in order to stop that from happening. He sacrificed his life for them. I don't think you get more honest than THAT.

Beyond that he's resurrected by someone who tricked his son into sacrificing himself, goes mad, is enslaved by the dagger, tortured, assaulted, commanded to kill the woman he loves, watches his son die and cannot even properly mourn him, FINALLY gets free and is then forced to not kill the person who has done SO MUCH to him and his family by someone who has done deeds just as, if not more, evil than his own.

You cannot tell me that someone who went through that kind of hell is not suffering from some pretty serious PTSD and is going to go back to old habits of protecting himself and his family. And that's what he does. Belle asks of him the ONE THING that he could not do (let Zelena live) and in the emotional and mental state he was in, I really don't think she should have asked it of him. I understand why she did, but he is suffering some pretty serious mental anguish and I was really bothered by that. And not surprised at all that he reverted to his old ways after finally overcoming his cowardice. Belle is all he has left in the world and no doubt he was afraid to lose her.

Does that make lying to her right? No. But it's understandable considering what he's going through and has been going through. And I don't think he's been lying to her all along. I feel like they got on pretty solid ground and then it all went to hell. And I'm hoping that while upset, that Belle will be willing to work through it WITH him rather than simply walk out on him.

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Okay, so in truth I only very vaguely remember Broken and Crocodile, but from what you're saying it seems she left him because he was hiding the truth from her? And lying by omission is still lying. And wasn't all that after he'd made her a promise to not use magic and/or always be honest with her? (Sorry, I really don't recall the details very well.)

He wasn't forced to not kill her. Belle asked him not to kill her, which is completely understandable - she doesn't want to be with someone who continually engages in revenge killings. (Well, I suppose I might be inserting real-world morals a bit too much here, but from a real-world POV I can certainly understand why Belle wouldn't want him to kill Zelena, no matter what she's done.)

I dunno. I do see your point, I just get tired of all the excuses being made for Rumple's behavior, especially with Belle. Though tbqh ever since we discovered that Rumple killed Milah I've kind of loathed him (especially since it was glossed over like it was nbd).

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I have to admit I didn't much care one bit about his killing of Milah and if that makes me a bad person, oh well. She was an abuser and I'm not surprised that her victim lashed out once he had some power. Having been emotionally abused by an ex, I entirely empathized with him in that situation. He's not the first abused person who has killed his abuser and nor will he be the last. Add to that being taken over by a dark curse which he clearly didn't have complete control over? His killing her was not surprising at all.

I don't know if Belle ever actually asked him to stop doing magic. But all of a sudden she seemed to have some issue with it, as if it represented his being "bad" and she wanted him to stop it. It seemed a little bit weird and she never seemed all that bothered by his magic and she KNEW he had it. She left him in the Crocodile because she asked him why he NEEDED the magic (he never denied that he was doing it) and he would not tell her (we know that it was to get over the town line but SHE did not know about Bae and the town line issue). So she left because he wouldn't be honest with her about it. Once he WAS honest, she decided to give him another chance.

I do think we sometimes put our real world morals onto these characters and I'm not sure we CAN. In our world, Regina would have gotten the death penalty. Rumple would not have ended up under a dark curse. Zelena wouldn't be looking to redo time and able to control someone with a dagger. It's larger than life stuff. Though even in real life someone who has done so much damage to a person and their family may very well end up dead. People DO go after those who killed a family member, after all. Is it right? Nope. Is it understandable? I think so. I think the temptation is there for many people in that situation. Some can go through with it (Rumple) and others never could (Belle).

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I actually liked Milah a lot in early s2, though in later flashbacks I didn't come to dislike her exactly, I just didn't like her as much because I feel like the writing screwed her over. She was a very sympathetic character to me early on.

I don't know that I would go so far as to brand her an abuser...could you clarify for me why you think that?

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This is a late answer because I've been moving for four days, but I would like to chime in because I've also been in an abusive relationship and this is why Milah was the abuser:

1. She went from zero to "I wish you had died" in literally two seconds. Like, she told him straight to his face on several occasions that she would have rather been a widow then have him come home like he did. That's emotional manipulation and frankly it's just plain mean.

2. She wouldn't even listen to his explanation of WHY he had injured himself and come home. She didn't care that he had done it for her and their son (mostly their son.) Everything was about her and what she thought and what the village would think of her, and how she and Bae would be judged. It was very narcissistic.

3. She promised to "try" to be happy and have a good life with her family, but obviously she lied.

4. The biggest lie of all, she ran off with another man and also let her disabled husband, who would have died in a duel with Hook and left their son an orphan, think that she was actually kidnapped and raped by a pirate crew and that it was his fault for not stopping it.

5. And this isn't about Rumple specifically, but we saw that she abandoned Bae home alone while Rumple worked, and she went off to drink and play games. That child was not anywhere near old enough to be home alone! And then when she saw Rumple again as the Dark One, she never once asked where Bae was, or if he was okay. Which was the issue that actually first set off Rumple, if you remember.

So, basically, she is a verbally and emotionally abusive narcissist who was killed in a moment of explosive anger. I ain't mad at it.

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hughville.livejournal.com

Let me begin by saying that I hold the writers responsible for my feelings about Belle not the actress.

1. What do you like about Belle?

In truth, very little. I almost feel that depending on which writer wrote the episode determines which Belle we see. Sometimes she's a strong, independent character; other times she just seems to be there to say how much she loves Rumpel and how much good she sees in him so the viewer might forgive whatever he's done.

I do like that she loves books and uses them to help solve problems. I do like that she sees the good in people. I like that when they betray the trust she places in them she doesn't automatically think they've changed until she sees proof for herself.

2. What do you wish was different about her?

I REALLY wish she was written with more consistency. Also, I could have done without Lacey. All my opinion, of course.

3. What was your reaction when Regina had told Rumplestiltskin that Belle was dead?

I knew Regina was lying and had Belle locked up somewhere. I think Regina just wanted to stick it to Rumpelstiltskin.

4. What was your reaction when Regina revealed Belle was in the asylum beneath the hospital?

I wasn't shocked. I knew Belle had to be in Storybrooke somewhere, locked up.

5. Given how Season 3 ended with she and Mr. Gold getting married, knowing he's already lied with regard to Zelena, what do you want to see in Season 4?

I really, really want Belle to confront Rumpel, call him out on his lying and tricking her, and make him WORK to earn her trust and love again. I DO NOT want her to go all wibbly wobbly and automatically forgive him. I want to see her strong, unyielding and resolute about that. I also want to see her interact with more of the other characters.

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See, I was surprised when Regina said she was dead, and then when she turned up in the asylum. LOL I guess I was caught up in the story at face value and not thinking of what scheming Regina could be up to. :o)

5. Given how Season 3 ended with she and Mr. Gold getting married, knowing he's already lied with regard to Zelena, what do you want to see in Season 4?

I really, really want Belle to confront Rumpel, call him out on his lying and tricking her, and make him WORK to earn her trust and love again. I DO NOT want her to go all wibbly wobbly and automatically forgive him. I want to see her strong, unyielding and resolute about that. I also want to see her interact with more of the other characters.

Yes, THIS.

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I completely agree. I was really excited about Belle's character at first, but now it seems like the writers can't get a handle on her. She's there to be Rumple's love interest at this point, and she's always a much more interesting character when he's not around.

And this is coming from someone who used to hardcore ship Belle/Rumple!

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Ok I will stay up front that Belle is one of my favorite characters and I ship the hell out of her and Rumple.

1. What do you like about Belle? I love that she's brave and intelligent, headstrong and a bit stubborn. She's not the type to go in there with a sword and bash heads together, but instead use her common sense and intelligence to work things out. She's a great researcher and knows how to find things in books that others might overlook. I just like that she's the brainy one. Strength comes in all types and it's nice to see the show explore strength of MIND not just physical strength. I also like that she sees the best in people, even if that sometimes comes back to bite her in the ass.

2. What do you wish was different about her? I wish she wasn't so naive. I don't mean in relation to Rumple either. She gets this idea in her head that the bad guys will just leave everyone alone if they don't enact vengeance. And every single time that comes back to haunt her. She doesn't want Rumple to kill Hook. He shoots her in the back and she loses her memories. She doesn't want Rumple to kill Regina. She turns her into Lacey. And then she doesn't want him to kill Zelena. And finally he just DOES IT. Behind her back. I really really hate her "promise me" schtick. She's involved with an evil sorcerer with a lot of enemies who will not even worry about hurting her if she gets in the way. Let him do his damned job and protect you. I admit I was REALLY angry at her latest "promise me" stuff. Because they'd shown her growing beyond that. SHE TOLD US that she loves all of Rumple, including the parts that belong to the darkness. And then she turns around and tries to get him to promise not to kill someone who has tortured him, essentially killed his son, tried to kill the Charming's baby and wanted to go back in time with the intent of erasing Regina and God knows who else. I'm sorry but that whole thing was bullshit. And I was glad that Rumple did it. For once though I just wanted Belle to say "Do what you have to to protect us all."

3. What was your reaction when Regina had told Rumplestiltskin that Belle was dead? Didn't trust her as far as I could throw her. I thought "NO WAY are they going to kill off Belle like that!" And then my heart broke for Rumple because he BELIEVED it.

4. What was your reaction when Regina revealed Belle was in the asylum beneath the hospital? It was a combination of "Regina is SO going to pay for this" and "I can't wait until he finds out she's alive!"

5. Given how Season 3 ended with she and Mr. Gold getting married, knowing he's already lied with regard to Zelena, what do you want to see in Season 4? I want to see them hash this out once and for all. I know I won't get what *I* want, but I want Belle to be upset that he lied, not that he killed her. I want her to stand up to him and for them to have a real conversation about honesty and that he really CAN tell her anything. I want them addressing his PTSD and anxiety issues. I want him to tell her that he doesn't feel like he can tell her some things because he's afraid she'll leave him and/or judge him for it (e.g. none of this would have been a problem if Belle hadn't gone into her stupid "promise me" schtick yet again after SEEING ALL THE SHIT HE HAD JUST BEEN THROUGH). They need an honest conversation and a working through of their issues. I don't want to see her up and leave him because Rumple will feel that is only what he has always deserved and he will be alone. Completely alone. And very likely suicidal, which is not really where ANYONE wants the Dark One to be. I do want to see Belle getting to know some other people, perhaps talking to Archie about all this. I don't know. But I DON'T want to see her ditch him. I want to see anger, hurt, but also that willingness to fight for him (and make-up sex...lots of make-up sex ;-) ).

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I do think the "Promise me" shtick sets her up for fail with Rumple. He's more consistently evil or self-serving - and has been for centuries - so her expecting him to just up-and-be Mr. Nice Guy and good doesn't work, just because she asks for him to promise.

It's funny though, how he's willing to break promise deals. I just thought of that!

LOL to make-up sex. I'm sorry but I have to bleach my brain at thinking of him having sex. :P

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But see...Rumple knows how to twist words.

With Regina he said he promised not to kill her. And he kept that promise. He just sent a wraith to suck out her soul, which means she wouldn't be technically dead. And he wouldn't have done it.

When Belle asked him to promise that going after Hook was ONLY about getting back the shawl, he left without saying a word. No promise there.

When she tried to get him to promise to not kill Zelena, he said "Oh Belle" and changed the subject. No promise there either.

I imagine Belle feels that he DID, but looking back she's going to realize he never ACTUALLY made that promise. Only the first time did he say "I promise" and his mind immediately went into overdrive for ways to fulfill that promise while still bringing harm to Regina.

You REALLY have to get the words right with that little bastard. LOL

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^^
All of this! :) Love my twisted little imp, he's a cagey bastard!

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Yes, that little imp. :p You're right - you have to be super specific or he has a loop hole ready!

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puppetmaker40.livejournal.com

1. What do you like about Belle?
Her persistence and loyality. Her ability to see good in people even when they are very damaged. Her love of books and pointing out that knowledge can be magical.

2. What do you wish was different about her?
They are already addressing it. She was a background character in some ways but this season she got in the middle of the fights and stopped being a pawn for others to toy with.

3. What was your reaction when Regina had told Rumplestiltskin that Belle was dead? I was of two minds since Regina is a liar who lies rather well but I could see it happening that way given what we know of the EF. However, I am a little disappointed that Rumple believed her at her word on it.

4. What was your reaction when Regina revealed Belle was in the asylum beneath the hospital? Oh Holy Carp!

5. Given how Season 3 ended with she and Mr. Gold getting married, knowing he's already lied with regard to Zelena, what do you want to see in Season 4?
I think they are going to have to work through a lot of things. Rumple went through hell after being brought back against his wishes and they still need to address whatever Zelena did to him. I don't think Belle will leave because been there done that entirely too many times. Of course that will probably be what she does until she cools down and sees his point of view.

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Do you think Belle ever can really understand his point of view? Given that she's so "good" and he tends to be so "evil"? Can they find that common ground?

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puppetmaker40.livejournal.com

I think yes because of what she told Neil in the castle that she loved all of him even the dark parts so unless she was lying, she has to take him as a whole including his sordid past that she is still discovering.

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Belle doesn't lie, so there's no reason not to take what she said at face value. She has never shied away from Rumple's dark side, she simply KNOWS it's within him to be a better man. I also suspect that she found out more about Spinner!Rumple from Neal during their time together. The man Neal remembers is the same man Belle believes in.

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ctrent29.livejournal.com

I so totally agree. Real-life morals put aside, Zelena is someone who tortured him and killed his son, would have killed a baby, and was planning on basically erasing half of their lives from existence. I was cheering for him to murder her the whole freaking time and had, ironically, written a fic where he used the dagger (though no change to porcelain). Of course, I also cheered when he killed Tamara and was not really all that upset that he offed Milah either as she was horribly abusive).

I don't believe in revenge. I think it is a selfish and immature act. It certainly didn't help Regina or Snow White in the end. I don't see how Rumpelstiltskin's revenge against Zelena will help him or Belle. Because of what he did, he opened Zelena's time travel portal that dragged Emma and Hook into the past. And we all know how that ended up. We just don't know the consequences of that trip to the past.

What made Rumpel's acts of revenge contemptible to me was that he always seemed to target unarmed women . . . a lot. I especially found his murder of Tamara beneath contempt, because she obviously felt remorse over her actions. She even tried to save Henry from Pan and the Lost Boys, once she realized she and Greg had been duped. But Rumpel didn't care. He wanted his revenge.

Even if Belle ends up understanding Rumpelstiltskin's point of view, I cannot help but wonder if she'll readily brush over it. If she does, she's a fool. I'm not saying she should dump Rumpel if she finds out. But she has to make him pay the price for his actions.

Edited Date: 2014-06-24 08:24 pm (UTC)

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What other unarmed women has he targeted?

Or, are you speaking more broadly to include the corruption of Cora and Regina in that as well?

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ctrent29.livejournal.com

Rumpelstiltskin has murdered - on screen - Cinderella's Fairy Godmother, Milah, Tamara and Zelena. He also sent a wraith against Regina at the beginning of Season 2.

Perhaps I had exaggerated, but . . . I don't know.

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