Episode Discussion 2x14: Manhattan

[jadestrick.livejournal.com]

Episode Discussion 2x14: Manhattan

While Mr. Gold, Emma and Henry go in search of Gold’s son Bae in New York, Cora, Regina and Hook attempt to track down one of Rumplestiltskin’s most treasured possessions. Meanwhile, in the fairytale land that was, Rumplestiltskin realizes his destiny while fighting in the Ogres War.

Posting a little early as I'll be out tonight. Enjoy the show!

Comments

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

What a cute pic!

[jadestrick.livejournal.com]

It screamed to be chosen. :D

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

IA re: Milah. I was hoping this ep would make her more sympathetic, but it just made me dislike her even more. First she doesn't want him to go to war because it's too dangerous, and then he comes back and she tells him he should have died? WTF?

[ye-olde-geek.livejournal.com]

My personal theory is that it was a question of honor. Not the Victorian-era fair-play honor codes, but the old school Spartan/Viking "come back with your shield or on it". Running from a battle, no matter what his intentions, would bring shame on the ancient warriors. It's orthogonal to to modern thought, but it's a theory as to why Milah would be so up-in-arms over it.

[lady_songsmith]

He didn't try to lie, he tried to dodge, which isn't exactly the same thing -- basically he was like 'does it matter?' And she came out and told him she'd rather he'd DIED than remained to love and provide for her and their newborn son. That's seriously harsh and not at all what someone who loves you would say even if they were disappointed in you.

[alorarose.livejournal.com]

I kind of got the feeling that even though she was lovey dovey at the beginning, that she wanted rid of him... so him coming home? yeah, not what she wanted.

[londongirl27.livejournal.com]

I kind of got the feeling that even though she was lovey dovey at the beginning, that she wanted rid of him...

I had that same feeling, too. Now, I'm wondering -- did she really want to stop him from going in the first place? Or was that all just an act?

I mean, for someone who was extremely supportive and encouraging in the beginning (i.e., insisting that Rumple was definitely no coward), it seemed odd to me that she had no problem easily believing the rumor about his cowardly move. Not even giving the benefit of the doubt or wanting to hear his side of the story first? Just straight-up anger on her part? Weird. Again, it seemed like a major change from the beginning, and it made Milah's character seem more fishy to me.

[alorarose.livejournal.com]

Wondering if she was forced into the marriage with him. Because if being a coward was such a shameful thing, why would someone marry the son of a coward? Too many questions that they probably won't answer.

[lady_songsmith]

Yeah, I am sort of wondering if she was cheating on him already. Yikes -- what if Bae isn't his?! (That'd actually be an interesting contrast to the blood-over-adoption thing the show's had going on thus far, though; I kinda hope it turns out to be true!)

[alorarose.livejournal.com]

Well, unless Milha told Hook, there's no one there to tell if Bae's really Rumpy's or not. And even then, it's not like anyone's gonna believe a thing Hook says, haha.

I can't wait for the next eeeeep.

[dragonstarlin.livejournal.com]

I thought about the her cheating before, it could be interesting. But then issues on the foretelling and using his blood with the globe.

I never had a huge issue with Milah. We just don't see much of her- this is a show of misdirection and multiple sides to a story, and yet how quickly fans forget... Actually some of the reactions to her in her first episode may make me more inclined to like her... not logical but oh well.

Basically I think that Milah liked Rumple, but wasn't in love. Normal in the period being represented- very limited options, expected to marry, have kids, and very lucky if able to grow into a kind of love through shared experiences. I think that Milah liked how Rumple represented himself initially- someone with a desire to prove himself, go and fight the war- remember he had no issue leaving Milah for his big chance, it was all exciting. Milah never got to see the front lines, experience the affect that can have on someone.

It would have been better never had his "chance", than for him to go, be excited to go, than from what she later learned abandoned it. Her situation in the town probably got bad fast as other women's husbands died, other fathers, who were fighting FOR their kid's future. I think that's really missed thinking about the situation and is unfortunate she didn't hit it more squarely. That's why people go off to war, for their families, so what is running away? For it also to be why he cheated out of it? I totally understand her being upset. Wouldn't be surprised if she got treated like crap as an extension, with out any relief with deeper relationship with her husband.

Other thoughts- Rumple has no proof there was a seer, or way to really impress upon Milah it's truth- he didn't believe the Seer at first either. Milah doesn't have any of the shared experiences we as the audience get in a way to feel for Rumple. He started to explain, but how well, how well can you REALLY translate that. The possibility of dying to KNOWING it. It's one thing too if there is a strong bond of love already, communication, etc. to help bridge but they didn't have that.

Also, while I believe she never loved him, he too played a role. He was either truly blind to it, which isn't good, or choose to ignore it b/c he loved her...but could he REALLY have and know her so little not to understand/expect her reaction? Both of them entered into the marriage they could have at the time, not a one person show.

Now, her leaving Bae, I don't like how she did it. Probably seemed like her only chance- again looking at the time period- not many options, and was desperate. We have no idea her inner turmoil or possible depression issues. Not excusing, but context. The hard truth is that sometimes it's better to leave. It really makes me a bit upset when there is no recognition to differences of experience- taboo in our culture around mother/child relationships, but the truth is, not everyone bonds in the same way, or that truly loving can sometimes mean letting go. For me it comes down to have little we have, and some things that point away from souless evil person more than to. I certainly don't love her, but I could only hate with MORE context that shows her totally inhuman.

If through more context we can love and root for Rumple, Regina, Hook...baffles me some of the responses to Milah with so little. Like I said, show of misdirection...

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

This. I don't care if she was disappointed. There's just no excuse for what she said.

[londongirl27.livejournal.com]

Henry has every right to be upset. Emma had lied to him. I knew this was going to happen the moment Emma first lied to him in S1. He'll probably forgive her. But he had a right to be angry.

Upset/angry, yes, but I agree with athousandsmiles on one specific point: Henry was wrong to liken Emma to Regina. Sure, Henry is a young kid, and as one, he said whatever emotionally, impulsive thing was in his head at that moment. Still, the statement itself is definitely a major exaggeration on his part. Emma's lie doesn't put her in the same company as Regina.

[athousandsmiles]

Henry was right to be upset, yes, but equating Emma's one lie to Regina's murderous actions was uncalled for. I'm just saying I hope he retracts that statement soon.

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

No, there isn't. Being disappointed in someone doesn't make it okay to tell them you wish they were dead.

I never said Milah was the devil incarnate or that it was okay for Rumpel to murder her or abandon Bae. It wasn't. But what Milah did wasn't okay either.

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

*sigh* Because I thought I'd already made it clear that I don't think Rumpel or Bae should get a free pass when I said this:

I never said Milah was the devil incarnate or that it was okay for Rumpel to murder her or abandon Bae. It wasn't.

And this:

I don't know why Milah gets more crap than Rumpel or Bae

But apparently I didn't.

[dragonstarlin.livejournal.com]

I can't see what you're responding to, but just giving you my support that I hear and see what you're saying and am with you.

[lady_songsmith]

I suspect the reason she takes more flack is because she doesn't have the development of either Rumple or Neil.

We know why Neil left Emma to the cops, we know he thought he was doing the right thing and that it hurt him to do it. And we know why Rumple left Bae, we know he regretted it immediately and that he spent ages trying to fix it.

All we've seen of Milah is her being angry at Rumple for wanting to live and be with his family, then abandoning her son. She showed very little remorse about that later, and we know nothing else about her motivations right now. There's nothing to hook sympathy for her on.

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

Good point.

[athousandsmiles]

He's had more development than Milah, as Bae.

[lady_songsmith]

As I said, we know his reasons. That's development. Number of eps/number of lines is not a reliable guide to a character's development. Sleepy/Walter has appeared in 11 episodes and we know almost nothing about him; Ashley/Cinderella appears in two and we know a ton about her. Like Ashley, Neil's episode was all about Neil. Milah's been backdrop to Rumple's story.

(Y'know, it's kind of hard to follow your arguments when you don't reply to the thread in question. I spent about 5 minutes puzzling over "yes there is" in your comment up-thread before I realized it was a reply to amarra.)

[underwear-slave.livejournal.com]

OK, heres my question..Would Gold/Rumplestiltskin lose his memories if he crossed the town line without the potion? I thought it was shown that he had retained his memories while everyone was cursed. Or are we to assume that he only got his memories once Emma showed up and time started moving again? IDK...just something that I was thinking about.

[athousandsmiles]

IIRC, the creators of the show said in an interview that Gold's memories returned the moment he heard Emma's name in Storybrooke. Which, in that case, makes me wonder how the heck he was able to procure Henry, specifically, as the baby for Regina to adopt when he didn't know anything about the curse or FTL at that time. Hard to believe that was coincidence. I guess we're just supposed to believe it was fate, but I hope for a better explanation.

Hmmm, now that I've said that, it occurred to me that maybe August had a hand in the adoption. It would've had to be through someone else though, seeing as how Gold didn't immediately know who August was when he came to Storybrooke.

[underwear-slave.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I guess I interpreted it differently. There was an episode early in the series where Regina was asking Gold about Henry and he was talking about how he procured him from Phoenix, etc. It totally seemed like he knew what what he was doing. But then, I guess it could have been fate. While the revelation of Neal is Bae was not shocking, I liked how the episode unfolded. And the conversation in the bar where Neal says that there is no such thing as coincidence. So everything was meant to happen...

[dragonstarlin.livejournal.com]

I don't actually care much about Emma at all. I'd be pretty neutral about her except when the go on about her being the savior and giving her magic...gah, I just end up really disliking her. B/c I haven't been made to organically feel for her, or be interested in her journey to becoming a hero for HER sake. I'd so much rather have other people as heros and their journeys. Snow hopefully growing up to to full acceptance of things she'd done wrong, Regina same and redeeming self- getting rid of "golden" crap heroes, but white/black doesn't exist.

So yea...Emma? Meh. She has her moments, there isn't a character who hasn't, and she's important to the plot, but just no feels. But I REALLY appreciated how they handled her realization of Neal=Bae. For us it was a total non-surprise, but instead of being a let down b/c of that, I think getting to see it as a surprise to everyone else was very well done. My biggest concern is how it plays into the horrid way birth vs. adoption is handled by the characters. Snow, yes, Emma, really SHOULD ASK, and I mean ASK to take Henry out of the state for days.

Overall I liked this episode on it's own, but it wasn't THE episode for me of the season as it had little to do with my favorite parts of the show (excepting I enjoy'd all the Rumple stuff especially). And as said, some of the on going tone Henry/Regina makes me nervous, I can hope it keeps getting stabbed at for a build, but I'm afraid to be optimistic. I can't say the show has ever let me down yet, truly, I'm a very glass half full person, but it is my biggest sore spot.