Questions for Into the Deep

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I have my questions and discussion points for Into the Deep! Only one more episode before the winter break...

1. Let's start with the end: Hook took Aurora's heart and gave it to Cora!! Now that was a twist. Did you see it coming? Does anyone have any doubt that he actually did it? (I quite definitely think he did it and they only didn't show it for the surprise factor. The man is going up against Rumpelstiltskin. I doubt he is going to do it on the strength of his charm.)

2. Are you disappointed that Hook has shown his evil self or pleased that he is finally living up to the role of villain? And what else is he hiding behind that pretty face? He has had 300 years (or thereabouts) to plan his revenge. As with Rumpel and Regina I have no doubt there are many secrets in his past to be revealed.

3. The heart taking mythology on the show has been greatly expanded this season. They've hinted that so long as you are holding the heart you control other person/animal completely but this is the first time we've seen someone act through the heart to make another person a puppet. Were Snow and Emma fooled by puppet Aurora or are they expecting some sort of double cross from Cora? Will Aurora realize that she is being controlled and fight back? And do you think (or hope) that hearts can be put back?

4. We also got some canon in show information that Phillip is only mostly dead. This has been mentioned in interviews as a possibility but now it's a future plot point. Assuming of course that Cora was telling the truth about this! Based on Rumpel's comments to Regina in Broken - that being taken by a wraith is a fate worse than death - I do think she is telling the truth. I see a quest for his soul with the only one question: whether it will be Mulan and Aurora or Mulan alone saving him.

5. Charming. Bad idea to go under the sleeping curse or REALLY bad idea? I get that he wanted to see Snow again and he had faith that she would save him and he wanted to protect Henry but I'm thinking that Snow is the brains in the relationship. Not to mention that Henry is going to go back to that room anyway when he falls asleep again. Though I will say the room appears to be more dangerous when you are purposely trying to get there.

6. Any interest in having Rumpelstiltskin tell you a bedtime story? Not exactly the most comforting of stories but the Scottish accent is rather soothing in and of itself. :)

7. And the INK!! Since I sincerely doubt that Charming stopped by the Dark Castle to pick up some items for Rumpel so that his stay would be more comfortable, it seems as though the only way the ink could be in his cell is if he had it on his person when they captured him. The whole story about the ink was certainly news to Charming - up until now he thought it was the quill. I'm considering this canon proof that my theory of Rumpel willingly getting himself captured is true. In fact, he NOT ONLY willingly went along with it but helped by magicking some of that ink into the quill since the quill itself wasn't going to be enough and he had to be completely convincing. And now I'm imagining him internally rolling his eyes at the quill and thinking amateurs.

8. So, Emma blames everything on Regina now. Did she listen to her mother at ALL? Did she forget that she was blaming Gold for everything just a little while ago? Or maybe she missed the part where Cora is evil? I guess it's just that she can't stop thinking about Regina.

9. Do you think Snow would have stabbed Mulan if Aurora hadn't stopped her? Do you think Mulan was right to run off with the compass before the time was up?

10. Regina has been very focused on not using magic unless it's to help someone - such as at Charming's request - but with Cora on her way will Regina be able maintain her redemptive path? In truth is using or not using magic a good measure of Regina's desire for redemption? Is it redemption if your mother turns Storybrooke into a smoking hole in the ground while you hold back from stopping her?

11. Who do you think is more powerful - Rumpelstiltskin or Cora?

Comments

[rpowell.livejournal.com]

Regina has been very focused on not using magic unless it's to help someone - such as at Charming's request - but with Cora on her way will Regina be able maintain her redemptive path? In truth is using or not using magic a good measure of Regina's desire for redemption? Is it redemption if your mother turns Storybrooke into a smoking hole in the ground while you hold back from stopping her?


I don't think refraining from magic leads the way to redemption for Regina. Unlike many others, I don't think that magic corrupted her. I think that her emotions and personal demons corrupted her magical abilities.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

However I wonder if using magic is something that tempts her into darkness. If so then complete abstinence for now is probably best. At least until she can separate magic and evil.

[ladylavinia.livejournal.com]

However I wonder if using magic is something that tempts her into darkness. If so then complete abstinence for now is probably best. At least until she can separate magic and evil.

Look at the damage Regina tried to inflict upon Snow White, Charming and Emma in Season One. She didn't have any magical abilities at the time. The only magic she used was Graham's heart, which she kept in her vault and that from the ring given to her by Daniel.

Other than that, Regina used good old-fashioned mortal means to make life miserable for the Charmings in Storybrooke, during Season One. She didn't really need magic to corrupt her . . . only her hatred and desire for vengeance. And that is what tripped her up by the end of the first season.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

All true. But at the same time she was the center of an evil curse. So she wasn't actively doing magic but her magic was all around them. Or something like that...this whole season two plot of 'the magic made her do it' has maybe a few plot holes. :)

[dani-ellie.livejournal.com]

And do you think (or hope) that hearts can be put back?

I want to believe the hearts can be returned, because I'm very sad at the thought that poor Aurora may not survive this. Which, I suppose, means the writers are doing their jobs, but ... still.

I wonder if returning a heart has even ever been tried.

So, Emma blames everything on Regina now. Did she listen to her mother at ALL? Did she forget that she was blaming Gold for everything just a little while ago? Or maybe she missed the part where Cora is evil? I guess it's just that she can't stop thinking about Regina.

I have absolutely no problem with that. As a matter of fact, I actually said, "THANK you, Emma" out loud. Because, well, she's right. Regina cast the curse that tore apart Emma's family. Regina poisoned the apple turnover that Henry ate, thus putting him under the sleeping curse, his survival of which caused him to go to the netherworld when he sleeps.

Outside circumstances have certainly helped Regina along her path to evil, but the fact remains that the woman made choices. She chose to take her anger and her pain out on countless people. She actually chose it twice, since she didn't cast the curse correctly the first time. If she couldn't be happy, then no one could be happy.

Compare that to Emma herself, who took her anger and pain and turned it into empathy. She sees bits of her own situation in others and she wants to help them. Because even though she couldn't be happy, she'd be damned if she'd let someone else be unhappy.

Don't get me wrong, I love Regina. But she did do horrible things and I see nothing wrong with Emma, whose family was the target of her wrath, deciding to call her out on them.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I worry that being sad means she's a goner. Just think of Graham! As for the heart, since Rumpel is the one who taught everyone the heart trick in the first place I wonder if he knows how to replace it if need be.

Hmmm. While Regina does deserve her fair share of blame, Snow was talking about how there is plenty of blame to go around and that sometimes you have to move on and go forward and it seems as though Emma heard none of that. And I guess I found it funny that she immediately latched onto Regina without even bringing up some of the other villains who had a part in all this.

Also, I for one have no trouble noting that Regina has made some very bad choices in her life which, along with outside pressure from Cora and Rumpel, have brought to where she is today. Even the big manipulation where Rumpel arranged to have her heart broken involved a choice between acceptance of Daniel's death and vengeance and she chose vengeance.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. Heh. I do like seeing a man getting by on sex appeal but I doubt it's going to work to kill Rumpel. So it's good that he does have some other skills.

4. But he was never dead? And there was enough info in Broken for it not to be a surprise that he's not dead. It's not like Graham or Daniel coming back. They're dead - Phillip has just temporarily misplaced his soul.

5. I suppose this was how they decided to get Charming out of the way for the next episode but Henry clearly should have been the one to go back. (However, as a parent I admit that I would also go into danger myself to save my daughter from having to do so.)

9. I'm not sure if Snow would have done it! She was screwing up her courage but I don't know if she would have been able to follow through. We'll never know now and Mulan will always have to wonder, which in turn makes me wonder if Mulan will be able to trust Snow again.

10. Cora is definitely too dangerous to keep alive. I think with her it's kill or be killed, no other options. Cora doesn't have weaknesses and is not at all likely to see the error of her ways.

11. Why do you say he isn't the Dark One anymore? He used the dagger and called on the wraith as the Dark One in Broken. And he has shown full command of the magic of Storybrooke right from the beginning. But I do agree that it is going to be a difficult battle no matter what!

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. Quite true. I'm sure he is adept at lying, cheating, stealing, boarding other ships, killing their crew, and various other pirate skills. However, it's not enough when you are going up against someone as powerful as Rumpel so I'm not surprised he decided to expand his skill set.

4. Ahh, now I understand. Like many of the other princes and male characters on the show it isn't really about him though. It would be about Aurora and Mulan. It would be their quest to find his soul and their plot.

5. The more I think about this though, the more I wonder if Gold manipulated it all to convince Charming to go under the curse. Henry is going to go back anyway and they can wake him up if need be. What does Gold get by having Charming out of commission?

9. I hadn't thought about it like that! It would be interesting if this made Mulan trust Snow more.

11. It's certainly possible that his magic in Storybrooke is weaker than it was before but I would put that down to magic being different and it is different for EVERYONE. This is something we are not going to be able to answer until Cora shows up.

[ladylavinia.livejournal.com]

I have absolutely no problem with that. As a matter of fact, I actually said, "THANK you, Emma" out loud. Because, well, she's right. Regina cast the curse that tore apart Emma's family. Regina poisoned the apple turnover that Henry ate, thus putting him under the sleeping curse, his survival of which caused him to go to the netherworld when he sleeps.


I had a problem with that. To me, it was a hint of possible lack of forgiveness on Emma's part. Lack of forgiveness didn't help Regina in the end. And Emma - along with many other fans - should realize that Regina alone wasn't responsible. Yes, Regina made her choices. But Rumpelstiltskin also made choices that helped Regina onto her path of revenge . . . all because he had originally abandoned his son. And I have a deep suspicion that if Regina had not succumbed to her emotions and Rumpelstiltskin's manipulations, he would have found someone else to cast that curse. Eventually.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I am absolutely certain that if Regina had not succumbed to his manipulations Rumpel would have found someone else. SOMEONE was always going to cast that curse for Rumpel. It was basically his whole purpose in life.

[dani-ellie.livejournal.com]

I had a problem with that. To me, it was a hint of possible lack of forgiveness on Emma's part. Lack of forgiveness didn't help Regina in the end.

Emma's got a hairpin anger trigger, but let her throw things around and make a few snarky comments and she's typically good. Right now, she's keyed up because she's separated from her family and the object of her anger. How she acts on it when she gets back and has to face everyone again ... we'll have to see.

And Emma - along with many other fans - should realize that Regina alone wasn't responsible.

How much of that does Emma really know, though? She might change her tune once she learns the whole story.

Then again, she may simply widen her blame net (as well she should ... girl's got a shit list a mile long). I see no reason why Regina should get off scot-free in the blame department just because Rumple would have found another patsy if she hadn't been the one to cast the curse for him (and I'd be blaming said patsy as much as I'm blaming Regina). Like I said above, Regina had a choice, and this is what she chose. She made her bed, and I find it difficult to feel sorry for her now that she has to lie in it.

[rpowell.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that Regina should get off scot-free. Even Regina doesn't believe that. But I hope that Emma eventually learns that she wasn't the only one to blame. Even Snow White realizes that she played a part in the curse being cast and Emma being separated from her parents. And if Emma learns that Rumpelstiltskin had created the curse and manipulated Regina . . . what then? Are we to continue blaming Regina alone?

If I'm expected not to feel sorry for Regina, how am I supposed to feel about Rumpel . . . or Snow White, or the Charmings for allowing Rumpel to manipulate them into a situation in which they willingly gave up Emma?

You know . . . if Regina's attitude had not changed by this episode, I would have heartily agreed with Emma's attitude. But now, I feel that I know too much regarding the circumstances behind the curse to really sympathize with her. I'm sorry.

[dani-ellie.livejournal.com]

I don't blame Regina alone, personally. There were plenty of people who helped mold her into who she became and they should get just as much of the blame as she does. However, Emma, at this point in the story, does not know any of that, and I see no issue with her laying the blame for the curse and the poisoned apple at Regina's feet. Because at the end of the day, Regina did do those things. Whatever the reason behind it, she did them.

If I'm expected not to feel sorry for Regina, how am I supposed to feel about Rumpel

Personally, I don't feel sorry for him, either. He made his bed as well.

or Snow White, or the Charmings for allowing Rumpel to manipulate them into a situation in which they willingly gave up Emma?

I don't see giving up Emma to save her from the coming curse in any way equal to casting the curse in the first place. Snow did what she had to do to save Emma (and, by extension, potentially everybody else) from the destruction Regina and Rumple caused.

I'm sorry Regina lost the love of her life in such a horrifying manner, and I'm sorry she had people in her life positioning her where they wanted her. But she allowed hatred and vengeance and power darken her soul and took her anger out on countless people, most of whom were nothing more than collateral damage to her.

As I said upthread, compare that to Emma, who turned her anger and bad circumstances into empathy.

It didn't have to end this way for Regina. She had options. She was certainly steered towards one option over another, but the fact remains that she chose vengeance.

But now, I feel that I know too much regarding the circumstances behind the curse to really sympathize with her. I'm sorry.

We do, but Emma doesn't. Snow doesn't even know most of it, and Emma knows less than she does. Emma also doesn't know that Regina's been trying to change. As far as Emma knows, she's still the same person who tried to kill her with an apple turnover. I don't think it's quite fair to penalize Emma when we have more information than she does.

[rpowell.livejournal.com]

As I said upthread, compare that to Emma, who turned her anger and bad circumstances into empathy.


Judging from her words to Snow White in the last episode, I think her empathy has been tossed aside. Her attitude toward Aurora is a good example of this.

[verseblack.livejournal.com]

1. I'm not sure why Hook thought that giving Cora the heart was a great idea. I mean, if she believed that was such a great plan wouldn't she have done it herself already? Why did that get him back in her good graces? It seems rather like someone going to Michelangelo's house and painting a huge mural on his ceiling--if that's what he wanted there he could have done a better job himself ;)

6. YES!! I've been saying for months that I very much want the entire cast to do audio recording of fairy tales (perhaps for charity?) They could each read a version of their character's story and their own personal favorite.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. Perhaps Cora did plan on taking the heart if no one took her up on her offer to trade but didn't want to bother otherwise. Or perhaps not since the value of the heart depended on Aurora not knowing it was missing and that Hook let her free. So in that case Hook did her a favor. I can see Cora appreciating sneaky, misdirection evil like that.

6. That does sound like an excellent idea! The Dark One reading me stories might make me nervous unless I was Belle but Robert Carlyle can do so anytime he wants. :)

[bloodysuicide69.livejournal.com]

1. Hmm, For some reason I felt blind sided. Betrayed almost. But... then I said "well it's hook isn't it?" I feel bad for Aurora. I also feel bad for Mulan, Snow and Emma. Now there is a mole in their group.

2. Both. I was sad to see the hottie Killian go, but at the same time a nice villian like Hook is good to have someone to hate, and boy do I hate him right now. :) It's gonna take a lot for me to regain his trust. (not that I feel like i'm actually in the show or anything ;) )

3. I was just going to ask that myself. Can a heart be put back? Is Aurora going die after Cora is done with her? It will be interesting to see what control of the heart can do. Also, would this tie into Lancelot somehow? Does she have his heart too, but is keeping him alive to use a puppet?

4. Last question I think is entirely up to whether or not Aurora survives her heart being ripped out. I think for Phillip if she lives, Aurora would stop at nothing to search for him. I think for now she's focused on helping Emma and Snow. Afterwards she will tell Mulan of what Cora said and they will find a way themselves.

5. Oh Charming. How dumb are you? I just don't understand the logic behind "not letting Henry go". He's got to fall asleep eventually right? Seems dumb for Charming to go to... Now Charming has to be woken by Snow and who knows when they will get back.


7. Am I missing something? Was the ink/quill mentioned in the first season? If so, please point me in the direction so I can re-watch that episode. There are some rumors that the ink is from Ursula. The sea witch. Would be a nice tie in for Ariel one day.

9. It's not in her character to do so. I think she is just desperate because she knows Charming is in danger now. Like a beast being cornered. She would have done anything, but I don't think she wanted it to reach that level.


11. In the end-- Rumple. But Cora is a woman scorned and we all know hell hath no fury like one so I think Cora is very emotionally evil. Like any woman. Rumple is more business-like when it comes to his evil. Plus, I like to imagine he's in some sort of rehab with his evil. Cora has no rehab. Her heart has been blackened.

Maybe she's the real -- ALL evil character people are wanting.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1 and 2. Interesting! They had very much downplayed Hook's evil in his first few episodes. We had all rather gotten used to the charming rogue and wondered if he was really a villain. My reaction was FINALLY while also wanting to make him give Aurora's heart back. It is good to have someone (besides Cora) to hate though. Rumpel and Regina have been given enough sympathetic scenes that they're hard to hate.

3. I do think Lancelot is alive but I hope Cora didn't take his heart - since she was impersonating him rather than puppetting him maybe she never took it.

5. Yep, he's going to fall asleep and go there again! Sometimes having faith isn't all that useful but Charming has always been All About Snow so it is in his character to focus on her to the exclusion of all else.

7. The quill was in Price of Gold - Rumpel comments on the LOVELY quill Cinderella has and how trying to trap him will only increase her debt. The ink we only found out about now but it makes perfect sense with his previous dialog about Cinderella TRYING to stop him with magic. She could only succeed because he helped her but she and Thomas still had to pay the price for trying.

9. She may not have wanted to be like that but I would argue that it is in her nature since we've seen her be ruthless before. Snow can be just as singularly focused as Charming. I do want to think she would not have gone through with it though!

11. Will he be able to defeat Cora while staying in rehab and holding back from using all the magic and evil at his disposal? Also, Regina is right - he has a weakness now, though it would be a good twist if Belle turned out to be a strength instead.

[bloodysuicide69.livejournal.com]

I agree with Snow and Charming, they are very focused on each other, on their family really. Snow hinted at something while they were asleep together. Wondering if this was to be the rest of their life, simply having to rescue each other forever. It was very sad. It almost seems like her resolve is wavering. How long can love endure hardship?

I find it interesting that the two characters we loved to hate last season both have become something other than evil. All because they both found something in our world that they love. Rumple found Belle and Regina has Henry. I think Henry does love Regina in a way, so I think that if she continues down that path of redemption she could get him back, though it would be a sort of "open" adoption at this point.

Rumple i'm not so sure about. He feeds off his power and he knows that it makes him respected and feared. He is also ashamed of who he was... so that makes it harder to think about stopping. Stopping equals going back to being a coward. I'm almost dead certain that Bae will find his way to dad, but I'm not sure what that will do to Rumple since he has this need to avenge wrongdoing to his kin at all costs necessary.