Episode Discussion 2x05: The Doctor
Oct. 28th, 2012 06:16 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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Episode Discussion 2x05: The Doctor
While Regina continues to try and stop using her magic in an attempt to win back Henry’s affections, she begins seeing what she believes is a ghost from her past; and when Mary Margaret and Emma discover a lone survivor from an ogre massacre, Emma begins to question whether or not he’s telling the truth. Meanwhile, in the fairytale land that was, Regina finds herself failing at learning the dark arts from a dark master because something from her past is preventing her from using her magic for evil.
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Possible Spoiler
Date: 2012-10-29 01:08 am (UTC)Re: Possible Spoiler
Date: 2012-10-29 02:03 am (UTC)Re: Possible Spoiler
Date: 2012-10-29 04:40 am (UTC)after all, didn't Dr. Moreau use electricity when he was done stitching together his creations?
Re: Possible Spoiler
Date: 2012-10-29 06:01 am (UTC)Re: Possible Spoiler
Date: 2012-10-29 06:10 am (UTC){respectively, from a math-heavy novel, is a Greek myth, is a Christian saint, and is regarded as a goddess worthy of worship}
so, its hard to decide where to draw the line.
(also, and more importantly, Dr. Whale was just one doctor - Storybrooke's hospital was packed full of doctors and nurses...and given how few of either are to be found in fairytales, where will the rest of them come from?)
Re: Possible Spoiler
Date: 2012-10-29 06:49 am (UTC)Well, IMO, no. I think they've got tons of traditional unsourced tales to tell just from the Brothers Grimm ... which was what I thought the show was going to be about from the beginning, and I have to admit, the only reason I didn't quit after the pilot was Robert Carlyle's incredible, unhinged performance, which I wanted to see more of. So Rumple's really the only thing keeping me going.
"(also, and more importantly, Dr. Whale was just one doctor - Storybrooke's hospital was packed full of doctors and nurses...and given how few of either are to be found in fairytales, where will the rest of them come from?)"
I would have thought, given the size of the town (which keeps growing with every episode, it seems) we had a perfectly good "Doc" among the Seven Dwarves! But they're unfortunately just background characters. And there are a lot of collected Grimm fairy tales, like hundreds of them. There must be other doctors in there somewhere. On the other hand, what fairy tales have guys driving delivery trucks or even schools for that matter? They weren't all practicing the same trades they did in FTL before the curse was broken.
Re: Possible Spoiler
Date: 2012-10-29 07:08 am (UTC)well, that would have been an interesting direction to go...though they would have had to remove a lot of characters. off the top of my head:
-Midas {myth}
-George {saint}
-dragon {english}
-Abigail {biblical}
-ogres?
Re: Possible Spoiler
Date: 2012-10-29 08:37 am (UTC)OK, Midas I could accept. They could take stuff from any sort of famous fairy tale, legend, or fable. But what bothers me is when they take a character from a known author, the person who invented that character, and change it around like they know the character better than the author did. I'd rather just stick with the fairytale characters we started off with, but the show is just overflowing with characters that aren't being used or developed; why keep adding more?
Re: Possible Spoiler
Date: 2012-10-29 08:38 am (UTC)Re: Possible Spoiler
Date: 2012-10-29 02:44 pm (UTC)>, and change it around like they know the character better than the author did
you mean like having Little Red Riding Hood be the Big Bad Wolf? ;)
that's pretty much the same as saying that Rumplestiltskin is both Belle's Beast & Hook's Crocodile.
(unlike Grimm, OUAT seems to be working to reduce the amount of animals and half-animals, by turning them into nicknames ("leviathan"))
>but the show is just overflowing with characters that aren't being used or developed; why keep adding more?
Dr. Whale's been there since early in season 1; it just took this long to say who he was.
(and as some on this comm have pointed out, series 1 focused on the Charming family)
Re: Possible Spoiler
Date: 2012-10-29 07:16 am (UTC)the size of the town is probably why there are so many nurses in the hospital.
> we had a perfectly good "Doc" among the Seven Dwarves! But they're unfortunately just background characters.
and also loyal to Snow White. (if you were Regina, would you want to put him in charge of your medical care, given Doc was probably fighting you in the FTL civil war?)
besides, that's exactly one doctor. so even if Whale had been Doc, that wouldn't explain any of the other FTL doctors and nurses.
> And there are a lot of collected Grimm fairy tales, like hundreds of them. There must be other doctors in there somewhere.
I found a few midwives...but not really any doctors - the Grimm stories were more often about making deals to have a loved one recover (or for the recovery of a loved one)
> On the other hand, what fairy tales have guys driving delivery trucks or even schools for that matter?
The hunting of the Snark has the Snark doing a lawyer's job in court. does that count?
> They weren't all practicing the same trades they did in FTL before the curse was broken.
Very true...though that's more the sort of thing that Regina's blamed for, than praised for.
Re: Possible Spoiler
Date: 2012-10-29 09:01 am (UTC)But still, if Sneezy can be the town pharmacist instead of a miner, anybody can be retrained/repurposed. And I wasn't blaming or praising Regina. She didn't create the curse anyway; Rumple did.
"The Hunting of the Snark"? I've never heard of that. Sounds like a search for Professor Snape to me! Or Ben Linus. Yes, if all stories are fair game, bring in Ben Linus! ;)
Re: Possible Spoiler
Date: 2012-10-29 02:48 pm (UTC)I thought that was supposed to be a bit of humor on the part of the writers - placing Sneezy in charge of medicine.
Lewis Carroll wrote the Hunting of the Snark - we shall hunt it with teacups and care; for if your snark be a boojum, you shall vanish silently away.
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Date: 2012-10-29 01:26 am (UTC)UNF on the Mad Hatter. He be a sexy one...
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Date: 2012-10-29 01:41 am (UTC)The Whale....stuff. No. Just no. He could have been ANY fairy tale character. I mean, what's next? Ugh, just no.
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Date: 2012-10-29 06:02 am (UTC)Pretty much what I said in my live commentary, but you put it more succinctly!
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Date: 2012-11-01 03:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-29 01:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-29 02:06 am (UTC)I don't mind that Whale is Dr. Frankenstein; I've never cared much about him either way, tbh. I did think the story was well done in terms of Daniel AND Regina's development in Fairytale Land.
Oh, and did Jefferson totally check out Queen Regina's cleavage? I'd swear that's what he did in Rumple's "office."
Where is August, anyway?
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Date: 2012-10-29 05:17 am (UTC)August is probably trying to find out who sent the postcard (2.01) and who recieved the postcard.
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Date: 2012-10-29 02:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-29 05:18 am (UTC)bit of a learning curve there. :)
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Date: 2012-10-29 06:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-29 06:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-29 06:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-29 03:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-29 05:20 am (UTC)(and you could add the Hatter to the list of characters you mentioned - fairytales don't have quite as many math problems as the Alice stories did)
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Date: 2012-10-29 06:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-29 06:14 am (UTC)granted, there's always Dr. Jekyll, I suppose. :)
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Date: 2012-10-29 06:52 am (UTC)That's what I'm afraid of! LOL.
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Date: 2012-10-29 04:12 am (UTC)I was surprised to learn that Rumplestiltskin, Jefferson and Dr. Whale (Frankenstein) had manipulated Regina toward her dark path. And it would have been nice if Henry had checked to see if Regina was okay, considering that she had just experienced an emotional trauma.
No problem at all with Whale being Frankenstein. Not like every character on the show is from a fairy tale - Captain Hook and Pinocchio are from novels, too, for instance (both of which were written a century after 'Frankenstein').
But Captain Hook and Pinocchio are from fantasy tales, not horror stories. However, Dr. Whale's presence did not bother me. After all, didn't Jefferson once speak of many dimensions? One could view Dr. Whale as a character from a dimension that has nothing to do with fairy tales.
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Date: 2012-10-29 06:15 am (UTC)I wasn't the least bit surprised about Rumple, but I didn't expect his method to be so dark. He metaphorically took Cora's child and used her to enact the curse he'd been working out for so long. It was all part of his plan. So I wasn't surprised that he taught her magic. I was just horrified at seeing him tear out a unicorn's heart! His wife deserved, but a unicorn? That's just plain evil! I like him more as an ambiguous character.
"But Captain Hook and Pinocchio are from fantasy tales, not horror stories."
Agreed. That's why I felt he didn't belong. IMO Kitsis and Horowitz need to pick a genre and stick with it. Or are they looking for more comparisons with Grimm? Or maybe even American Horror Story? Seems like there's no story (in the public domain) that's off limits. Dracula and Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde can hardly be far behind. (Well, we already have a werewolf. *sigh*) Why not throw in Davy Crockett while they're at it? Wait, forget I said that. They probably will now!
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Date: 2012-10-29 07:10 am (UTC)they're probably trying to reduce the comparisons with Grimm, by relying on other traditions. (while Grimm itself is using beings not found in the Grimms tales)
maybe not Davy Crockett...but perhaps one of the giants will be Paul Bunyan.
:)
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Date: 2012-10-29 08:51 am (UTC)Well, I had thought that Grimm was trying to reduce the comparisons by going in more gorey direction, but after tonight, I think OUAT is trying to reinforce them. Also, I'm not really happy with that direction on Grimm since, well, he's a Grimm by definition, so that show should definitely stick with the Grimm canon. (I think they changed it up because Silas Weir Mitchell, as Monroe, the Grimm fairytale expert and "Blutbad," can't get his German pronunciation down! Which honestly is not difficult. The rules of spelling/pronunciation are about the most consistent of any language I've studied. Much as I love the character, if an actor can memorize lines, he can take a little time off camera to talk to a German speaker--there must be at least one somewhere in Hollywood--and ask how the two or three words of German in each script should be pronounced. Simon Baker works a lot harder getting his American accent down for The Mentalist!)
Whew, I get pretty riled about my fantasy TV shows, don't I?
OK, the giant can be Paul Bunyan ... That doesn't have an author, does it? (Actually, I think the giant from Jack and the Beanstalk will have to come into it at some point, what with all the talk of magic beans.)
Wait, I know who they haven't brought on yet, and Disney owns the rights: The Muppets! And, if tonight's writers are on the job again, Rumple will probably slay Kermit. (Sorry, on my TV shows, innocent animals are just off-limits. Any slaying should be a fair fight: human to human ... or imp.
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Date: 2012-10-29 03:00 pm (UTC)he's The Dark One - by definition, everything is his mortal enemy, because he's the most evil thing in that world.
>can't get his German pronunciation down! Which honestly is not difficult.
most of the German-speakers I know, don't tend to go "WTF?" at the pronounciation. (for one thing, it could be explained as Monroe not being a native speaker)
...they go "WTF?" at the names given to some of the wesen-types.
>OK, the giant can be Paul Bunyan ... That doesn't have an author, does it? (Actually, I think the giant from Jack and the Beanstalk will have to come into it at some point, what with all the talk of magic beans.)
no reason why Jack's giant can't be Paul Bunyan.
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Date: 2012-10-29 07:15 am (UTC)um, *Rumplestiltskin*'s story involves him tearing himself in half.
The little mermaid involves cutting out tongues.
King Midas accidentally turned his daughter into a statue.
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Date: 2012-10-29 05:53 am (UTC)i liked how they even paid homage to the old movie by doing the scene in black and white...
i never had a clue he was Dr. Frankenstien, as i had not seen the previews and i am glad i did. It all made sense as the episode went on...
and fuck yes! FUCK YES! Regina has been doing what i wanted her to do ALL LAST SEASON! SEE A FUCKIN THERAPIST! she has so many issues and i think she was FINALLY ready to see Archie when she FINALLY was able to let Daniel go. She didn't go see Archie at the end because she used magic...but because she FINALLY let go and she can FINALLY move on...
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Date: 2012-10-29 06:19 am (UTC)I had already read the theory that Whale was Frankenstein a while ago and was praying it wouldn't be true! But this show alternately thrills and disappoints me with just about every episode.
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Date: 2012-10-29 02:08 pm (UTC)And that whole thing about Cora's heart collection, lends more evidence toward the theory that she is in fact the Queen of Hearts in Wonderland.
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Date: 2012-11-01 03:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-29 02:23 pm (UTC)And I feel like there's finally a real reason for Regina to be evil. I really do. It's seriously relieving actually.
AND I WANNA KNOW WHO WHALE'S BROTHER IS.
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Date: 2012-10-29 09:19 pm (UTC)I also like that this episode raises that magic vs science debate and gives the answer (at least from what I saw) that both are similar things that can be used to reach a goal rather than competing forces that point to a "true" way for people seeking a deeper truth. In this case to raise the dead.
Second, I want to learn more about Whale/Victor but I'm really happy to learn more about Regina & her Start Of Darkness. Season One's storyline made it seem that it was that one trauma (plus years of Cora's abuse) that changed her into the evil queen we know now but I'd glad the writers are going for a more nuanced story. Regina fell but it wasn't in one leap. So to speak.
And I love that she's seeing Jiminy and trying to work out her issues. If they go for Redeemed!Regina before Season Two ends, I could buy it. She is working hard to change her ways and be a good person for Henry. Though I could do less with the magic = addiction angle but I'm hopeful by some events in this episode so I'll let it go for now.
Another major plus is that I very much prefer the Hook I saw here than the one in "Crocodile". He just seems more full of vengeance and trickier, so it makes for a more interesting character rather than the lovable rogue he was last ep.
And above all...I like the many worlds (all fantasy/horror/sci-fi novels/stories/myths are true) angle the show has and is embracing. I'm on a kick with the MCU, Doctor Who, and am reading Of Leaves. It makes for fun storytelling, points out how all stories are interconnected, and reminds me of how "we're all just stories in the end" as stated in Doctor Who.
I look forward to seeing what the purpose of this is and wondering if the writers are going for some meta point about stories and storytelling in general.
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Date: 2012-10-30 02:44 am (UTC)THIS.
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Date: 2012-10-29 10:25 pm (UTC)I think this was simply a case of character development. Captain Hook goes from a loveable rogue to vengeful villain, following the death of a loved one and the loss of a hand.
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Date: 2012-10-30 01:49 pm (UTC)Not my favourite ep, I found it a bit boring in places, still, I was thrilled to see that giant beanstalk.
I am enjoying Regina's back story. BUT the "I'm addicted to magic" feels Clumsy "OH NOEZ!!1! I used magic again" Guys, Buffy made the same mistake back in the days, so it's not like you're alone in the corny addiction metaphor sandbox. A little subtelty wouldn't hurt. Just saying.
OK, I think it's safe to say that Cora *is* The Queen of Hearts from Alice in Wonderland(unless I haven't been paying attention and this has been revealed before?).
I loved the way Emma said "as in 'captain Hook'?" in this "this shit is really happening and I'm right in the middle of it" tone.
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Date: 2012-10-30 09:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-11-01 03:47 am (UTC)