We Are Both Discussion Questions
Oct. 10th, 2012 01:43 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
chloris.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
abc_onceuponI wrote up a long review of We Are Both and now I have my questions and discussion points for episode as well.
1. Once again let's start with the end. With CORA. Now that was a twist! Why is she locked up? I don't think her evil was widely known so did she make a power play and get slapped down? Also, how did she get back from the annoying little world Regina sent her to? Did Jefferson make a hat that worked or was it the curse that sucked her back in? If she could have gotten back on her own I believe she would have done so.
2. Relatedly, who else is now completely on board with Cora being sent to Wonderland and becoming the Queen of Hearts? She did go through the LOOKING GLASS, both she and Regina were taught by Rumpel and both have a heart vault, and it was clear in Hat Trick that the QoH and Regina had a history. Being in post curse FTL does not mean anything about where she was before. This is about 12-15 years of elapsed time later. There is nothing saying she could not have gotten back!
3. So Rumpelstiltskin WAS Regina's teacher in magic! Fascinating. It seems as though Regina had a great deal of magical potential of her own and Rumpel provided the knowledge to use it. This bit of backstory also makes it clear that Regina did not have to marry Leopold. Only Cora was forcing Regina to remain and marry him and Regina (with Rumpel's help) pushed Cora through the looking glass before the wedding. (They are discussing the upcoming wedding in the scene when she does it.) Now I want to know why she turned around, went back, and married him anyway. Just for revenge? Also, I'm curious as to WHEN she marries him. Did she leave to learn magic and then come back later? Was being free not enough with Daniel dead and she couldn't let it go? (like Snow when she forgot Charming)
4. Another piece of Regina's backstory was revealed, or at least strongly implied to the point where I'm considering it canon, which was that Regina was indeed The Baby Who Got Away from the original tale. In Stable Boy Daniel mentions that Cora was a miller's daughter and now Rumpel talks about how he held Regina as a baby and how they were supposed to be together. Cora is definitely evil but I can't wait to find out how she tricked him out of his price. Maybe that's why he never changes his terms now. (Oh, and I've seen speculation that Regina is his daughter and that's why he held her as a baby. I think there is no way he is. We've seen him with Bae and we know what he would do for his child. Not buying it for a minute.)
5. Now, I know that the show is all about evil being made not born but I wonder how Cora was before she met Rumpel. He tells Regina that she looks nothing like her mother and wonders how they could even be related. (We're not talking looks here - we're talking personality.) This makes me think that Cora, while she might not have been evil at the beginning, was still most likely power hungry with a big ruthless streak. Will Cora be shown to be sweet and innocent, corrupted by Rumpel, or bad from the start?
6. I've seen some discussion of Bae's age and of Rumpel's age recently that I want to mention. First Bae - Rumpel talks about Bae crossing the barriers of time and space and tells the Blue Fairy he has all the time in the world to make the curse so I'm not sure why people keep trying to figure out how old he is. He will be as old as the plot requires! *g* All we know is that he will be older than 14 since that is how old he was when he fell through the portal. Second Rumpel - the flashbacks with Regina are not even close to the oldest flashbacks we've seen with him. These were 12-15 years pre-curse and we already know he well established as the Dark One 50 years before that with hints of many more decades or centuries. (Which is also why figuring out Bae's age is futile. If the curse couldn't move through time he's long dead.) His makeup was off in the episode but as far as I can tell that's a production issue. As for his voice, I found it in the normal range of Rumpel-voice especially since he tends to change it depending on who he is talking to.
7. So Rumpel planned everything EXCEPT the bit where breaking the curse meant he would lose his FTL memories if he left town. He seems to be quite confident that he aimed the curse at the approximate time and place Bae ended up (see maps of only the northeast US in his pack) but left out a crucial detail. Being Mr. Gold only was not going to help him at all so he's stuck. Also, what was everyone else thinking? If they lost their memories of FTL and of Regina the Evil Queen wouldn't they simply turn right around and go back home to Storybrooke? Like Sneezy! Where they have jobs and homes and friends they remember.
8. Hey, August is alive! Or alive-ish at least. We got to see him blink his eyes this episode and he somehow got out of the bed. On his own steam (if he moved his eyes it's likely he gained control of the rest of his body as well) or did someone take him? Also, I'm thinking he could not have sent the note in episode one. If he just now soaked up enough magic to move his eyes then he was in that bed for the first day of the curse breaking. (Remember it's only been 24-48 hours since the curse broke.)
9. And Jefferson is as crazy as ever! Maybe more so since he seemed to be having a lot of trouble keeping it together when talking to Charming. However, he could have sent the note since he didn't get stuck in his car until the wraith came through, several hours post-curse.
10. Will Regina's desire not to turn into her mother be enough to keep her on the straight and narrow road to redemption? It was enough to convince her to let Henry go instead of keeping him prisoner but not enough to let the book go. Not necessarily to burn it since it could be useful for good purposes as well! But she didn't let it out of her control either. Was anyone else happy that Henry got to talk to her about what she did to him by making feel as though he was going crazy and making sure no one else would ever believe him? Both of them got started on repairing their relationship in this episode.
11. Charming - hotter than David or MUCH hotter than David? He is short tempered, thinks with the point of his sword, and doesn't seem to have learned of the word tact but he is also confident, forceful, and capable of making a good speech when needed. Snow might have been the one who did most of the talking but it's good that he is learning that he can do it too.
12. In the scene where Charming gets the finding potion, note what Gold is holding! Baelfire's ball which we saw in The Return. I think that might answer how he planned to find his son. Thoughts?
1. Once again let's start with the end. With CORA. Now that was a twist! Why is she locked up? I don't think her evil was widely known so did she make a power play and get slapped down? Also, how did she get back from the annoying little world Regina sent her to? Did Jefferson make a hat that worked or was it the curse that sucked her back in? If she could have gotten back on her own I believe she would have done so.
2. Relatedly, who else is now completely on board with Cora being sent to Wonderland and becoming the Queen of Hearts? She did go through the LOOKING GLASS, both she and Regina were taught by Rumpel and both have a heart vault, and it was clear in Hat Trick that the QoH and Regina had a history. Being in post curse FTL does not mean anything about where she was before. This is about 12-15 years of elapsed time later. There is nothing saying she could not have gotten back!
3. So Rumpelstiltskin WAS Regina's teacher in magic! Fascinating. It seems as though Regina had a great deal of magical potential of her own and Rumpel provided the knowledge to use it. This bit of backstory also makes it clear that Regina did not have to marry Leopold. Only Cora was forcing Regina to remain and marry him and Regina (with Rumpel's help) pushed Cora through the looking glass before the wedding. (They are discussing the upcoming wedding in the scene when she does it.) Now I want to know why she turned around, went back, and married him anyway. Just for revenge? Also, I'm curious as to WHEN she marries him. Did she leave to learn magic and then come back later? Was being free not enough with Daniel dead and she couldn't let it go? (like Snow when she forgot Charming)
4. Another piece of Regina's backstory was revealed, or at least strongly implied to the point where I'm considering it canon, which was that Regina was indeed The Baby Who Got Away from the original tale. In Stable Boy Daniel mentions that Cora was a miller's daughter and now Rumpel talks about how he held Regina as a baby and how they were supposed to be together. Cora is definitely evil but I can't wait to find out how she tricked him out of his price. Maybe that's why he never changes his terms now. (Oh, and I've seen speculation that Regina is his daughter and that's why he held her as a baby. I think there is no way he is. We've seen him with Bae and we know what he would do for his child. Not buying it for a minute.)
5. Now, I know that the show is all about evil being made not born but I wonder how Cora was before she met Rumpel. He tells Regina that she looks nothing like her mother and wonders how they could even be related. (We're not talking looks here - we're talking personality.) This makes me think that Cora, while she might not have been evil at the beginning, was still most likely power hungry with a big ruthless streak. Will Cora be shown to be sweet and innocent, corrupted by Rumpel, or bad from the start?
6. I've seen some discussion of Bae's age and of Rumpel's age recently that I want to mention. First Bae - Rumpel talks about Bae crossing the barriers of time and space and tells the Blue Fairy he has all the time in the world to make the curse so I'm not sure why people keep trying to figure out how old he is. He will be as old as the plot requires! *g* All we know is that he will be older than 14 since that is how old he was when he fell through the portal. Second Rumpel - the flashbacks with Regina are not even close to the oldest flashbacks we've seen with him. These were 12-15 years pre-curse and we already know he well established as the Dark One 50 years before that with hints of many more decades or centuries. (Which is also why figuring out Bae's age is futile. If the curse couldn't move through time he's long dead.) His makeup was off in the episode but as far as I can tell that's a production issue. As for his voice, I found it in the normal range of Rumpel-voice especially since he tends to change it depending on who he is talking to.
7. So Rumpel planned everything EXCEPT the bit where breaking the curse meant he would lose his FTL memories if he left town. He seems to be quite confident that he aimed the curse at the approximate time and place Bae ended up (see maps of only the northeast US in his pack) but left out a crucial detail. Being Mr. Gold only was not going to help him at all so he's stuck. Also, what was everyone else thinking? If they lost their memories of FTL and of Regina the Evil Queen wouldn't they simply turn right around and go back home to Storybrooke? Like Sneezy! Where they have jobs and homes and friends they remember.
8. Hey, August is alive! Or alive-ish at least. We got to see him blink his eyes this episode and he somehow got out of the bed. On his own steam (if he moved his eyes it's likely he gained control of the rest of his body as well) or did someone take him? Also, I'm thinking he could not have sent the note in episode one. If he just now soaked up enough magic to move his eyes then he was in that bed for the first day of the curse breaking. (Remember it's only been 24-48 hours since the curse broke.)
9. And Jefferson is as crazy as ever! Maybe more so since he seemed to be having a lot of trouble keeping it together when talking to Charming. However, he could have sent the note since he didn't get stuck in his car until the wraith came through, several hours post-curse.
10. Will Regina's desire not to turn into her mother be enough to keep her on the straight and narrow road to redemption? It was enough to convince her to let Henry go instead of keeping him prisoner but not enough to let the book go. Not necessarily to burn it since it could be useful for good purposes as well! But she didn't let it out of her control either. Was anyone else happy that Henry got to talk to her about what she did to him by making feel as though he was going crazy and making sure no one else would ever believe him? Both of them got started on repairing their relationship in this episode.
11. Charming - hotter than David or MUCH hotter than David? He is short tempered, thinks with the point of his sword, and doesn't seem to have learned of the word tact but he is also confident, forceful, and capable of making a good speech when needed. Snow might have been the one who did most of the talking but it's good that he is learning that he can do it too.
12. In the scene where Charming gets the finding potion, note what Gold is holding! Baelfire's ball which we saw in The Return. I think that might answer how he planned to find his son. Thoughts?
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Date: 2012-10-11 12:44 am (UTC)4. Yes, Regina was the baby that got away! I mean, I know we'd all speculated it ever since Cora was a miller's daughter, but it was nice to get a little more info. I loved Rumpel "portable" line. Very funny.
5. I think Cora will be not-evil if we see her young self. Probably not quite ruthless, but very ambitious, very determined in the sense that she wants *out* of poverty, wants a better life, and is willing to do a lot to get it. Very probably desperate, because those are the type Rumpel goes for. But I'm not sure she'll be down with murder at that time. One interesting thing is that in "The Stable Boy" Cora said to Regina she did her deals to "get *us* out of poverty." So does that maybe mean she was still in poverty after she married/after Regina was born?
6. I agree that Bae can be any age 14+. I don't think Rumpel knows his exact age, either. If he knew exactly, he'd have timed it so Bae was still 14ish by time Emma broke the curse. Been there to find Bae within hours of his arrival on the planet.
10. I did like Henry lighting into her about gaslighting him. I don't see her redemption kick sticking at this time (too early in the series). It wouldn't work for me, even if it did. She's doing it to *get* something (Henry's love and trust). She doesn't feel sorry for all the murders, doesn't feel sorry for cursing the world. She doesn't believe she was wrong in the way she treated others and showed no indication to try to make it up to any of them. This is not an unselfish choice made because she realized she was *wrong* and regretted all the harm she caused so many innocent people. It's about getting/keeping something she wants.
11. Charming is MUCH hotter than David!
12. Yeps, that does look like how Rumpel planned to find Bae. Be very interesting to see how it plays out with something *not* going according to Rumpel's plan.
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Date: 2012-10-11 02:40 am (UTC)4. Oh yes - the portable line was one of my favorites in the episode. Hee.
5. It seems likely that she will be driven and selfish at very least. And desperate! I think Rumpel can smell desperation anywhere it shows up. Henry says that she met Rumpel before he (Henry) knew her so she had already made at least one deal with him. It does seem as though it was a continuing relationship though.
10. It doesn't bother me if a fictional character wants redemption to get something so long as they are shown to truly change and set their evil aside. (as in no longer hurting anyone else) Basically, I think wanting to be a better person for someone you love is a good thing and an excellent first step to becoming a better person in general.
12. I didn't notice the ball the first time I watched and then I saw it and it all MADE SENSE. He had the ball and the potion and he brought back magic to use the potion and it's so simple! All those years of making the curse to bring him to the proper time and place and it comes down to pouring a potion on a ball and following it.