ABC Once Upon A Time

I noticed it last season, but young!Regina is adorable. At least, I think she is. This episode really showed just how much Regina was twisted by her thirst for power and the lingering influence of her mother. Also, Charming's speech to the those trying to leave town was awesome. He's a great speaker when he puts his mind to it, even if he's normally the one who does the fighting. And how did Cora get back to the Enchanted Forest from wherever Regina sent her?

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I want to know where Cora came from too. I wonder if the curse opened portals and mixed different lands up. I'm pretty sure that Cora became the queen of hearts in Wonderland when Regina sent her through the looking glass.

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maidenjedi

I was positive that Cora would end up in Wonderland, so it was interesting to see her in the decimated Enchanted Forest, or whatever that "safe haven" really is.

SO INTERESTED in how Rumplestiltskin and Regina eventually fell out.

Very intrigued about Regina's redemption storyline and how that might go, especially once Snow returns (or they are in the same land together again, whichever).

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I'm almost wondering how much of Cora's personality (and through her Regina's) was set by Rumpleskiltskin.

agreed that Charming had a great speech...though part of it was confusing - he wants to be like David Nolan?

>how did Cora get back
>?
part of a conquering army?

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sparkythegeek.livejournal.com

Ooo, that's a cool thought.

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The show seems to be pointing towards Cora being the Queen of Hearts, but I'm not completely convinced yet. I also like the idea that the curse opened portals to different lands, since it would be a great way to introduce new characters and conflict.

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If Regina is any indication, Rumpleskiltskin influenced them both in a very bad way. Because only someone completely desperate and/or evil would cast the curse that would get him one step closer to finding Bae. At this point, he probably saw Cora (and later Regina) as just a pawn for him to use.

I don't think Charming wants to be like David, he just accepts that part of him that was/is David. I got the sense that Charming didn't particularly like David all that much, but he realizes that David is a part of him now. Jefferson said as much during their short conversation, and I think it was then that Charming realized that everyone was going through the same internal conflict that he was struggling with.

Sorry for the mini-rant, it's just the idea of two sets of memories/two personalities in the same body is a really interesting concept to me.

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I got the same sense. Having David's memories hurts him because he hurt Snow so much. An how weak and indecisive David was. But having those memories reminds him that being Charming so much more important to him. That he strives being more like Charming.

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Another thing you said is that Jefferson made him see that everyone was having that struggle. But Jefferson always had all his memories. He always knew he was the mad hatter. So what memories is he struggling with? The fact that he doesn't have his daughter?

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I think Regina's redemption is part of something big. Like the plot has the balance the two evil forces because Rumple is about to pull out lots of punches because he's pissed the hell off that he can't leave.

Also I don't know how Cora got out but I'm still sure she's the Queen of hearts in Wonderland. Cause she went "through the looking glass".

My theory, I think I mentioned is that the curse made the different worlds permeable to each other. Ogres I don't think we're ever part of fairy tale land. Which is why they are unprepared for them. Ogres came from a different world jut like Cora. Or perhaps because Cora is originally from FTL, the curse brought her back there when it was enacted.

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maidenjedi

Well, we know there were Ogre Wars in FTL - Rumpelstiltskin was known as a coward because he ran during a war with invading ogres, and Belle ended up with him as part of a trade for him to use his magic to protect her father's kingdom/territory from ogres. If they're not prepared to handle ogres, it's because ogres are a worse threat than they can handle with the meager resources they have in the safe haven. I'm sure there's crossover between the worlds as a result of Regina's spell and that's how Cora ended up back there, though.

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I can't believe I forgot about the Ogre wars!! *duh*

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badforthefish.livejournal.com

So, those apples, they are like those little energy level checkers strips on batteries then? Black: Regina's got no juice. Red: duck and cover?

Where is Pinocchio gone?

Aren't y' all tired of wondering who the HECK is Dr. Whale? I hope we find out this season.

I still don't buy how Regina came to hate Snow so much. I mean, everything else is so well written - the characters' motivation make sense, but this, how even as "good young Regina" she wished she would strangle a little girl for not being able to keep a secret...nah, really can't suspend my disbelief for that. That she would hate her mother, fair enough, but poor little clueless Snow?

Nice Twist to have people forget their true self once they cross the border.

What happened to Belle?

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no need to apologize - I don't see that as a rant...not even as a ramble.

>Jefferson said that much,
Jefferson was a bit more caustic about it, granted.
(though he raises a good point, if slightly indirectly: who gets custody of Grace? her parents of 28 years, or her father of roughly 8 years? she has memories of being raised by both, after all)

and I agree that its an interesting concept. question is, how do they {the two personalities} interact? (do David-personality and Charming-personality argue? or is David nothing more than a folder of memories Charming can leaf through whenever he wants?)

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Belle and Pinocchio took a walk to vent about their feelings & plan what to do next?

I wonder if Regina's resentment towards Snow (for what happened to Daniel and for the wedding) was intensified into pure hatred, by the magic-learning at the hands of Rumplestiltskin.

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I have a bad feeling nobody (intown at least) will believe her redemption unless Regina sacrifices herself for them (likely against Rumplestiltskin).

there were ogres in Irish lore, Mongolian lore, and Grimms' tales. the Greeks had Titans and Arimaspeans (cyclopian giants)

>Cause she went "through the looking glass".
wouldn't that make Cora=Queen Alice?

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Jefferson said he was being tortured by having two sets of memories - which he told David was worse than the curse everyone else had been under.

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Yea but what memories? Because he was Jefferson in FTL and Jefferson in Storyebrook. For some reason he was not effected by the curse with where his memories are concerned. He always knew his daughter was with a different family and he was trying to find a way back to FTL with his Daughter before Emma arrived.

Maybe the thought of his daughter happily with another family is what he's talking about. Not sure.

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I think that David and Charming are one in the same. And so Charming has to content with the fact that HE did hurt Snow. That HE did think she murdered Kathrine. He has to hold himself accountable for that. So perhaps they don't argue... but he has to face the fact that as a cursed version of himself he made bad mistakes.

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Well, I assumed that the looking glass was simply a portal door to Wonderland and not distinctly how Alice got there.

Does that make any sense? Like yes Alice used it, but so did Jefferson and Regina to get her father. So why not Cora to get there?

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Also the whole strangle Snow scene didn't add up with the last Young Regina episode we saw. At the end of Stable Boy episode Regina was already filled with hate for Snow she said "I should have let her die on that horse"

Unless she is having horrible mood swings and eventually gives in to the "hate" part of her moods.

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good theory.

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apologies; i was trying to make a light joke ("queen alice" is a chapter title in a Lewis Carroll anthology)

your answer makes a great deal of sense.

I think what muddles it for me, is the idea of Mr. Glass: do all full-length lookingglasses go to Wonderland?

more than that, Rumplestiltskin called it "an annoying(,) specific world" after we had been introduced onscreen to Wonderland. (that sort of vagueness and reluctance to name-identify somewhere, is usually reserved for before the audience sees it)

you raise excellent points.

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I can only think that they described it that way particularly because they didn't want to give away WHERE Cora was sent off too instead of the place itself.

It is a good point about Glass though, but perhaps mirrors can just be mirrors... unless they are portals. Instead of all mirrors are portals.

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excellent point. (to my shame, I had not considered that)

so, either Cora was sent to Wonderland...or the lookingglass is a red herring to make us all think Cora was sent to Wonderland.
{right about now, I wouldn't put it past the writers to do the first one, or to create a third option}

perhaps all mirrors are mirrors...but they are all potentially cages (Glass) and potentially portals (Cora)

...question then is, do all roads lead to ~~Rome~~ Wonderland?

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I know there are plenty of superstitions about mirrors being cages.

Not sure if all roads lead to Wonderland, or if the writers just happen to LOVE the place so much and want to hopefully use it again. :)

I think there are other lands that the writers want to explore as they made hints to it when Regina and Jefferson went into the hat. (all the doors that I so eagerly want to open!)

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chloris.livejournal.com

I've always thought that he had a curse name and curse memories but he was consciously rejecting them for his real memories so they were always fighting it out with each other. So his curse name is, for example, Washington but he would never call himself that since he knows he is Jefferson and is pushing back against the curse memories. What I would love is for Jefferson to drop some hints as to what his curse memories are. Maybe in his other memories are of Grace being killed in a tragic accident and he has had to fight against that for 28 years.

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I only know of three:
* "mirror mirror on the wall..."
* Alice in Wonderland
* a Mayan deity named Smoking Mirror

either option would be good. (or, in a twist, whomever protected that corner of Regina's world, also now rules Wonderland - post-Queen of Hearts or not)

i imagine the doors will be used...in fic even if the series doesn;t use them as much as we'd like.

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Wait... is his name Washington in Storybrooke? For some reason I never caught that....

I thought his curse was that he had to watch his daughter be happy with someone else.

I'm so confused now.

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chloris.livejournal.com

It was very surprising seeing her in FTL! And not just because of Wonderland - up until this episode I thought she was dead. As for being sent to Wonderland through the looking glass, I think she was indeed sent there but that was ~15 years ago and even 2 or 3 years ago that Regina left Jefferson there so anything could have happened.

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Photography and mirrors have superstitions surrounding them of trapping your soul or being able to fall into them and become trapped.

I'm talking about long ago. It's not so much anymore (we're enlightened). When mirrors first came out 1000s of years ago people were superstitious of it and especially when photos came out people believed your soul could be trapped when the picture was taken.

This is totally off topic lol and I think i'm mostly talking smoke! ;)Haven't actually researched it.

As for the hall of doors... i'd like to make an official field trip there. And open all the doors sneak a peek in and say "oh okay. That's cool"

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chloris.livejournal.com

No, no! I was just making an example and following the naming conventions! *g* Jefferson is a US president so I gave him another president as a name. (as an example of a potential name) I do think he HAS a curse name but we don't know what it is since he has never used it on screen.

Part of his curse is to remember and only be able to watch but the other part is to have another set of memories fighting in his head. We don't know what they are - they could be memories of always being alone, or of a bad divorce and his daughter taken, or of his daughter dying. But whatever they are they have been fighting with his real memories for 28 years.

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ah, okay.

not OT...after all, smoke and mirrors are recurring elements of the series.

I'd pay to be on that field trip.

I remember one of the Babylon 5 movies had a line... "But in our haste to leave {the universe}, we forgot that a door may swing both ways."

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Based on what we've seen so far, I think Charming just has David's memories that he can refer to at any time. Sure, they make be fake, but they're still useful. Like how Charming knows about the Mad Hatter from David "reading" Alice in Wonderland.

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ye-olde-geek.livejournal.com

A few thoughts:
1)It would seem that Rumplestiltskin is playing the long game, though to what purpose I'm not certain. Maybe as a way to get back to Bae?

2)What world did Cora get sent to? I was guessing that she got sent to Storybrooke based on narrative structure, but I'm wondering if Rumple flat-out lied about the portal. Not something we've seen him do before, but possible.

3) Seems I was wrong about Regina's redemption. I'm a little ticked (as I like committed villains), but they're handling it somewhat realistically what with her keeping book and all. I'm wondering if breaking the dark curse also returned the ability to love that Regina sacrificed to use it.

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I like the idea that David Nolan reminds Charming of who he wants to be like - not David Nolan.

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I was wondering how everyone else read this: did Regina get rid of Cora *before* the wedding? If so, how/why/when did she end up marrying Leopold?

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ilm.livejournal.com

I think we should be finding out about Dr. Whale in the 5th or 6th episode, maybe on Halloween. Some people think he is Dr. Frankenstein.

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felaries65.livejournal.com

I still don't buy how Regina came to hate Snow so much. I mean, everything else is so well written - the characters' motivation make sense, but this, how even as "good young Regina" she wished she would strangle a little girl for not being able to keep a secret...nah, really can't suspend my disbelief for that. That she would hate her mother, fair enough, but poor little clueless Snow?

Even I wanted to strangle Snow White after seeing "The Stable Boy" . . . and I knew that she wasn't completely responsible.

You're demanding that all of the characters behave in a logical manner. That's not possible. People are not as logical as they like to believe. And I suspect that Regina has not been logical ever since Daniel's death. That was a very traumatic thing for her to witness.

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There's a difference between angry and emotionally over-wrought and being so consumed by misplaced blame that you spend decades devoted solely to the destruction and/or misery of the target of your rage. "People" might be the first, but they aren't generally the second.

Regina never wanting to see Snow's face again would be a normal human reaction. Absolute hatred and decades spent pursuing revenge and enslaving and murdering and cursing numerous individuals is not normal.

I've occasionally thought Regina is mentally unstable, but she is coherent, capable of long-term planning, aware of her deceits, etc. and thus is clearly mentally competent, at least. Though I absolutely believe *she* believes her own line about being a victim, no matter how many people she kills or harms.

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