Broken - Questions and Discussion Points

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I thought I would post my discussion questions again now that we have new episodes to dissect.

1. Since the episode started with him, let's start with the mystery man. Bae is the obvious choice (right coloring this time even) since he is the only one we know of from FTL who came here and is unaccounted for. But he is almost too obvious so do we have any clues as to else the mystery man might be?

2. And who sent him the note? August is wood as far as we know so I doubt it's him. Maybe the Blue Fairy sent it? Or maybe Jefferson? If Jefferson sent it, could mystery man be another realm jumper? Perhaps the White Rabbit or March Hare?

3. Did Maleficent go back to evil after her run in with Regina? Aurora was cursed for less than a year (in elapsed time) and it took Regina from the wedding to the birth of Emma to get the curse working. So figure nine to twelve months. Hmmm. It sounds as though Aurora was cursed after the Maleficent/Regina throwdown. I guess she got crabby and went back into the curse business. Got the mother ~20 years ago and got the daughter just before the big curse.

4. Was Aurora the reason that corner of FTL survived? The Blue Fairy went off to make preparations before the curse took effect and putting some sort of protection over the sleeping princess could have been at least one of the preparations.

5. Now I generally believe much of what Regina says to be a lie, since much of it is. However, she seems to truly not remember Jefferson or why she had the hat. The camera went to a close up of a completely blank look on Regina's face which seems honest to me. (Regina is a very good liar no matter what Rumpel says but she does have tells.) And I'm not sure why she would lie anyway! It's not as though it would blow her cover or ruin her reputation to admit to knowing Jefferson.

6. Did the wraith suck out some of her memories when it tried for her soul? It had her for a fairly long time so it would not be surprising if there were side effects.

7. Just who is Doctor Whale? He is NOT telling. *g* All we know is he doesn't live in Charming and Snow's kingdom which doesn't tell us much. Oh, and we know he is really angry at Regina. Now, that is something I'm interested in finding out about! (what she did to him) I hope we'll find out when we get his backstory.

8. Emma is magic! Or at least she has some sort of connection to the magic Rumpelstiltskin brought back. This does make sense since both the potion and Emma are the product of the same True Love. However, it seems that it takes more than a touch for her to transfer any magic - it requires intent. Emma clearly wanted that hat to work when she grabbed Regina's arm and jumpstarted things but did not want to work any magic when she touched Regina previously in the episode.

9. What did you think of the Charming family reunion? It was so interesting seeing Snow and Charming in Storybrooke, acting like themselves again and acting like parents to Emma. Neither one of them wanted to leave Emma's side for even a minute while Emma clearly needed a drink and some time to process things.

10. Is anyone surprised that Rumpel would immediately look for the loophole in his promise to Belle? That is what he does! And I don't think it even occurred to him not to weasel out of the intent of his promise. Intent is meaningless after all. However, he may want to rethink that if he wants to stay with Belle. Though I for one would have been very disappointed if he hadn't gone after Regina since I waited all summer to see him confront her and find out what he would do to her. But then I like him all evil. And I'm not dating him. :)

11. Both of our main villains now have a reason to mend their ways and try to become better people. Rumpel knows he will lose Belle if he continues twisting her words to suit himself and manipulating everyone to his own advantage and Regina knows Henry will have nothing to do with her unless she helps rescue Snow and Emma while also not going all Evil Queen on anyone. People can only change for themselves - another person can't make them - but wanting to be worthy of someone you love can be a powerful motivator.

12. Who else was surprised at the end when we saw that all the FTL action took place after the Storybrooke scenes? One wraith and in saving Regina they doomed Phillip. Also, how dead is Phillip? All dead or only mostly dead? I'm going for mostly.

Comments

[tamlover.livejournal.com]

1. Mystery man: no firm ideas here. I see a lot of "White Rabbit" speculation on TWOP. I keep going back to that red hand symbol on his wall. I keep thinking I should know it or it should mean something to me, but I just can't place it.

2. Who sent the note? Well, if it's Bae, maybe August - though I always thought it possible he got his info from the book, there's been a lot of speculation about him knowing Bae in the past. We don't know if August is still wood or not. Jefferson had an awareness of his own self, but seemed to willing to go along with Regina's ways if it got him his daughter to have been working actively against her. Also, with how he went on about being trapped, I'm not sure if he had outside contact. We've seen messages sent by bird before - Charming sent one to Snow. Also the Blue Fairy sent one to Pinnochio via dove in the Disney movie. Whoever sent it has to have known someone on the outside. That limits our known possibilities to August, Rumpelstiltskin, and the Blue Fairy (if she was pretending not to know herself, as has been speculated).

4. Right now I don't think the survival of that section had anything to do with Aurora. I think it's by design - the Blue Fairy's or Rumpelstiltskin's or some other powerful magic-wielder - and for a grander purpose. But I'm certainly willing to reconsider as we get more info.

10. I was not at all surprised that Rumpelstiltskin honored the letter, and not the spirit, of his deal. I was waiting for him to renege. It's what he does. He's no better now than he was fifty years ago, IMO. Just the same man, doing the same things.

11. They had reasons to become better before. Certainly for the last season Regina has had a reason. She chose not to do it. Likewise, at least four opportunities have come Rumpel's way and he's chosen the bad path each time. I don't think Regina, in particular, wants to be *worthy* of Henry's love. She just wants his love. She'd much rather she didn't have to change to get it. And if she's still of the mindset that she has no problem with torture and murder, but refrains from such activities to keep Henry's affection, then she is still evil, IMO. I do think Rumpel has more deep-seated self-loathing. But I'm not certain it isn't more about loathing for weakness rather than loathing for evilness - it could really go either way...or both ways.

12. I think Phillip and the other wraith victims can be saved - you can still hear the souls, so they aren't destroyed. The question is whether the souls will be freed to have the peaceful afterlife or whether they will be returned to life. IMO, he will not be saved by True Love's Kiss to the body laid out.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. I'm sure once he is revealed all the items in his apartment will have some meaning even if we can't see it now.

2. Considering August was wood when we last saw him, I wouldn't count on him being turned back off screen. It was magic which turned him to wood for breaking his deal with the Blue Fairy so I doubt more magic is going to fix him (without help). And Jefferson may be desperate and mad but that doesn't mean he couldn't have outside contacts, even if he didn't make them until Emma started time again.

10. Change isn't easy and most people don't want to change. Rumpel is no different and I certainly don't expect any lasting changes in him at this point in the series! Whether he can change, well that's up to the writers.

11. I do think Rumpel has more deep-seated self-loathing.

Oh yes. I think about half his motivations and private thoughts spring from his self loathing. Loathing for his evilness. Loathing for his weakness. Loathing the he's a monster, that he's unlovable, and so on. He puts up a good front and turns a lot of that self hatred on others but that is where everything starts with him.

12. That's my thought too - the souls are trapped not eaten or lost. It's just a matter of getting them out. Perhaps it can go either way - afterlife or reviving the person and a little magic to direct Phillip's soul back is what will be needed. (And considering that Regain still has a mark I'm wondering if she is destined for a soul sucking sacrifice and a revival at some point in the future.)

[hani.livejournal.com]

I had to watch the season premiere on Project Free TV so there was a lot of buffering going on...

When in the episode did it reveal that the Fairy Tale Land action took place after the Storybrooke scenes? Or were you just talking about in this particular episode and not all of Season 1's FTL episodes? (One review I read said it was the latter, which confuses me a lot.

5. I thought Regina was just lying when she was all "Who's Jefferson" because she didn't want to reveal more about what she knew but your explanation makes sense, too!

9. I liked the Charming reunion, for all Emma's reaction may have rubbed against other watchers wrong. Yeah, Rumpel had a point that she should be thanking him, but she only half an episode or so to even believe in magic and suddenly she has to face she really is Snow White and Charming's child, and the same-age friend she's been rooming and talking about one-night stands with is actually her mother? I thought it was entirely believable.

10. I don't know how reformed Rumpel is going to be, even with Belle there. Maybe if Bae is found (I don't want to believe the mystery man is Bae just yet, that seems too pat to me), then he'll think about giving up dark magic, but until then I think he'll try for a while and slip here and there and/or try to be more discreet with his loophole-finding.

Are people still going to be paying him rent?

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I'm only talking about this particular episode. All last season EVERY FTL scene was pre-curse and therefore a flashback. In this episode at the end we see Emma and Snow in the hole left by the wraith traveling from Storybrooke to FTL. So that means the same wraith that Rumpel released killed Phillip after first trying to get Regina and getting pulled through the hat. I was not expecting that!

5. She certainly could be lying. It's in her nature. But there wasn't even the hint of smirk or self satisfaction so I'm not sure.

9. I thought Emma seemed perfectly in character. She hasn't slept in a couple of days, she's distracted by the purple magic cloud and what it's doing in town, and on top of that Snow White really is her mom. One thing I really liked is how open she was in telling them how she felt and why she wasn't immediately all happy. (And Snow was very funny going into Mom mode and wanting get right into it.)

10. It'll be interesting to see if Rumpel can balance a relationship with a good woman and his own darker impulses. However their relationship goes I don't think it's going to be easy.

Are people still going to be paying him rent?

I suppose it depends on whether he has the power (with magic back) to enforce his contracts!

[hani.livejournal.com]

1. Oooh, okay! That makes more sense now!

9. I think a review I read at...the A.V. Club, possibly, was all "EMMA'S REACTION WAS JUST SO BITCHY AFTER HER MOANING IN SEASON 1 ABOUT NOT KNOWING WHY HER PARENTS LEFT HER" or something a little less caps-lock happy. :P

[seldonp38.livejournal.com]

Regina is not evil. Neither is Rumpel. But both have chosen a dark path for their own reasons. If both could learn to give up those reasons and see how futile they are, perhaps they can be redeemed. As for Henry's declaration . . . I have a little problem with that. You see, Henry never witnessed Charming's attack upon Regina, only the latter's attack upon Charming. And Charming, I see, has not been forthcoming about his own actions. As long as Henry remains completely ignorant about what really happened between Regina and Charming, I cannot take his demand that Regina reform her ways rather seriously. And both Henry and Emma need to know the truth about what led Regina down her path of vengeance.

Is Emma magic? I don't know. If she is, I believe it is due to Rumple. He made her the catalyst for the spell to be broken. He used her to bring magic to Storybrooke. It is possible there has been a magical consequence from Rumple's use of Emma for his own magic.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I personally do see both of them as evil. But NOT irredeemable! They've murdered and destroyed lives and enjoyed doing it. I love both characters and want a redemption arc for each of them as the show goes on (not too soon though) but I'm not going to ignore all the awful things they've done no matter their reasoning.

Charming may have threatened Regina in the episode but she was clearly planning on killing him with a song in her heart. As such I have no problem with Henry not wanting anything to do with her right now. As far as Henry or Emma finding out the truth about what happened to Regina, I don't see them absolving her of the evil she committed in retaliation especially if she is still actively trying to destroy Snow.

Emma definitely got the hat working and gave Regina some magic which makes her magic at least in Storybrooke. And I agree it has to do with her connection to the curse. Actually...now that we know the curse had basically the same effect in FTL (28 years of no time) I wonder if her magical connection might not extend into both realms.

[comicbook-worm.livejournal.com]

1) At some points last season the writers were a bit obvious about certain things, so I say that it's a fair bet to say that the mystery guy could be Bae.

Still, I wouldn't cross out the character possibly being related to Peter Pan somehow since we're getting Hook this year.

And personally, I have a little feeling he might be related to Jefferson and his "absence" from Regina's memory. So being related to Wonderland is also possible.

2) So on that end I will say, it's likely Jefferson sent that note. We don't know everything he was up to in those 28 years.

4) It could be some fairies piggybacked on Aurora's curse, in order to protect a small portion of Fairy Tale Land to come back to. And either they never got around to telling the Blue Fairy or wound up sleeping/cursed when...well the Dark Curse set in.

5) I figure the writers are taking advantage of Jefferson being absent for some episodes (Since Sebastian Stan is filming Captain America 2) and building a mystery around it. And I look forward to it!

6) I can't imagine that memory loss would factor in to a wraith stealing your soul. I would figure that she'd end up tired maybe but then again who can say.

7)I've heard theories that he's Peter Pan and part of his anger may come from being forced to grow up.

OTOH, the writers also said they wanted to do The Little Mermaid on the show. So maybe he's King Triton or Prince Eric? Regina in "Skin Deep" mentioned needing Rumpel's help with a mermaid, so it's not too out there.

9) The Charming Family reunion was everything I dreamt of all summer and still surpassed everything I expected. I am beyond excited for the Emma/Snow hijinks in Fairy Tale Land. And I love that Henry & Charming are bonding in Storybrooke. When Henry called him Grandpa it was so adorable. :)

10) I am expecting fallout from that relationship and seeing Rumpel slip up more trying to keep Belle's promise. I don't need him to be the Big Bad or even a little bad. But I do like to see him as a maker of mischief wherever he is, so this seems like a nice start.

11) If I had to make odds on anyone becoming good on the show (but not necessarily this season) it would be Regina. We've already seen that Rumpel wasn't going to change for his son, who in my opinion he loved much more than Belle, and he's already working out ways to get out of his promises for Belle. Whereas Regina hasn't quite been given the chance to prove herself as loving someone more than wishing vengeance/desiring power yet. There's hope she'll change or at least I'm on the bandwagon to see her become good if not nice.

12) He's in a fairy tale. Of course he's only mostly dead. :) Mind you if he stays asleep/dead for longer so Aurora & Mulan can bond, I will not be disappointed by that plotline at all. As long as I don't get anymore love triangles from the writers if/when he wakes up. Last year's love triangle was enough.

And well played by the writers in subverting our expectations by playing with the format! I hope it continues throughout the season.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. True. They did tend to use straight lines between plot points sometimes. I struggled against the August/Pinocchio connection since it seemed too obvious and here we are! This time I won't struggle and go with whoever this is. Though now that I've thought about the Wonderland connection I like it. It would open up a whole subset of magical characters who aren't from FTL and aren't under the curse.

5. If she really doesn't remember him, I wonder what else she doesn't remember. It'll be interesting to find out if this was a con (though for what reason?) or the sign of a larger problem.

6. Yeah, I have no idea either. Maybe the wraith is a red herring and the memory loss is tied to the curse. It plays with memories so maybe it's still doing that.

9. I'm so glad they had some focus in this episode as a family so we could see how they all reacted to everything together before the plot pulled them apart.

11. I'm not sure! I'm betting on them both backsliding personally. Rumpel has had more time to regret things he's done which could make one want to change but he has also had more time to become very used to having power.

12. Aurora&Mulan bonding would be good! Aurora hasn't had much to do yet except get rescued so I want to see more of who she is. And, yes, no more love triangles until they are going for OT3, and I doubt they are going there.

[comicbook-worm.livejournal.com]

1) Although, now that I think about it; Gold could also have sent out that postcard.

He needs outside contacts because how else could he have gotten Henry and he could be gathering people to take on Regina or help find Bae in our world.

I like the idea that the guy is from Wonderland best though.

11) I like that about Rumpel. You never know what he'll do or what side he's on and he's such an interesting combination of contradictions. I am still gunning for him to find redemption too but he's off to a bad start as of this episode.

12) Given that it's Disney I doubt they'd ever allow an OT3 but implied OT3, good friends/team players Aurora/Mulan/Philip they could pull off. Which would be awesome to see. And I don't need Aurora to be an action star but I would like to see a little more personality on her part. Which the next episode might just bring too.

[ye-olde-geek.livejournal.com]

3. Yeah, the Malificent timeline doesn't make much sense. I'd need to rewatch the episodes, but I could swear when she talks to Regina she mentions having already taken her vengeance.

11. I don't see either of them improving, but I think Gold has a slightly better chance than Regina, if only because using the Dark Curse cost Regina the ability to love. Gold still has that and that can be a very powerful motivator.

12. I guessed it a little while before the reveal, but I tend to have a knack for figuring how writers are going to spin their stories.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

3. It makes more sense if Aurora is Sleeping Beauty Mark II. She talks about Maleficent going after her mother and then after her. I'm assuming that the Sleeping Beauty Regina talked about in The Thing You Love Most was the mom - i.e. Sleeping Beauty Mark I. And then the timelines work. However, I wonder why Maleficent gave up cuddling her unicorn and decided on vengeance instead!

11. However, Gold also has the driving need to find Baelfire and we know he is willing to do anything to do so. Can he pull back enough to make it work with Belle while still continuing to work towards a reunion with Bae? I'm not sure. I also wouldn't be surprised if he tried to push Belle away again. He has a lot of self loathing and may not want her near him because of it. (Though at least he is willing to admit his love for her now. That is a step forward.)

[ye-olde-geek.livejournal.com]

Agreed about Gold. I just wanted to point out that Regina's still got the effects of the curse hanging above her head. Personally, I think Gold's character traits are going to be what prevents his redemption rather than some magical something or other.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

He does have some seriously tough character traits - he's paranoid, bitter, self loathing, and cruel. He also has good traits as well but it is going to take very hard work to change himself for the better.

[verseblack.livejournal.com]

2. I'm kind of liking the idea that Regina sent the note.
I'm going with the crowd that Mystery Man is Bae and now that Belle is safely in Gold's arms Regina needs a new pawn :)

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I hadn't thought of that! She was uniquely situated to make outside contacts. And probably bored. *g* It's an interesting thought but right now I'm still leaning to Jefferson. I just like the idea of a Wonderland connection for some reason!

[rpowell.livejournal.com]

I don't see either of them improving, but I think Gold has a slightly better chance than Regina, if only because using the Dark Curse cost Regina the ability to love. Gold still has that and that can be a very powerful motivator.


The Curse has not cost Regina the ability to love. That was made clear in the Season 1 finale.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I do agree with this now that the curse is broken! It seems as though so long as the curse was active she couldn't make that final connection since (like everyone else) she couldn't grow or change. But with the curse no longer holding her back she has the chance to heal the hole in her heart and we'll see if that is enough. For dramatic purposes this may take a while so I'm not expecting either of them to be 'good' by the end of the season but I do hope to see an arc developing.

[seldonp38.livejournal.com]

Regina has always loved Henry. Her parenting style may have been a bit too strict, but she has always loved him. She raised him in a manner that she was familiar with - namely Cora's own parenting style.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I know there has been a fair amount of debate about this but from what I saw in the season one Regina wanted to love Henry but couldn't until the very end of the season when the curse broke. It's not about parenting style necessarily, though she certainly did not have good examples, but about the curse preventing her from loving.

[bloodysuicide69.livejournal.com]

1. I definitely believe it's Bae... and more importantly I'm totally loving the idea that he is ALSO Henry's father. Saw that theory floating around the web and fell deeply in love with it! Emma said he was a piece of work, but that doesn't mean he was a "bad" guy. Maybe she was the bad person in the relationship and he wanted things that she couldn't give. Just my thoughts.

4. Waiting to find out because it's a great question and I haven't heard a good answer yet. There is a safe haven though so obviously more people survived. Maybe the Blue Fairy knew the curse would break with Emma and needed to make preparations for when/if they returned there would at least be something to go back to.

5. I believe she lied. Her face looked like she was surprised that Emma knew Jefferson but she was putting her poker face on because she didn't want to reveal more than she needed to about him, considering how many times she's screwed him over. Her face clearly reads "HOW THE EFF DO YOU KNOW" while also trying to convey total unknowing. In fact I give the actress of Regina lots of props for making such a convincing lying poker face. :)

7. Don't know but want to know badly. I have heard so many theories over the interwebs but I don't know what I believe or if there is enough evidence for it.

9. LOVED IT!!!! Although, I'd be a little more than freaked out if my parents looked like they were MY age. I mean clearly Emma needed a drink from figuring it out and Charming and Snow were a little less sympathetic to her plight considering the life she had to live.... but seriously I would have been screaming "YOUR MY AGE!"

11. As a side note to this.... has anyone noticed how Rumple treats Belle the way he treated Bae. He's very protective of those he loves and that's why he needs his powers because he feels he needs to protect himself and his loved ones. (which is another reason I LOVE the Bae-henry's father theory! It puts Rumple on Henry's side for a reason!)

12. ME ME ME! I was I was! My mouth was floored and I was like "HOLY CRAP I WANT MORE!"

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. I love the theory of Bae as Henry's father too. It adds another nice level of family complexity and entanglements to the show. However, I am also quite taken with the Mystery Man as White Rabbit idea! Which would mean that we may get yet another dark haired mystery man on the show this season. :)

5. Yeah, I'm coming around to that too. I know she is a lying liar who lies but I was hoping for something a little more interesting. And then I want to know why she thought she could get the hat to work! If she remembers Jefferson then she knows she needs him to work it properly.

9. Hee. To be fair, even if Emma didn't believe before she did have a few months to get used to the idea that Henry at least thought they were her parents. I loved how Snow was all pushy and wanting to have the big family reunion RIGHT NOW while Charming was trying to hold her back and give Emma some space.

11. He is very protective and I think that's a great aspect to his character since most people are just pawns to him. It is nice to see the contrast. You can also see the contrast in how he acts with Bae or Belle - much softer and more open.

12. I do love a good twist and I was happy they could surprise me like that!

[bloodysuicide69.livejournal.com]

1 & 11. I think one of the main reasons I'm so in love with the Bea/Henry father theory is because that makes Rumple Henry's grandson. Maybe I don't know Rumple well enough but I know he would stop at nothing at that point to keep Henry as his own. Which would tie into the Rumple story of trying to take children from there mother. Or I'd just love to see him be gramps! :) so many good twists with that one character. I'm so eager.

I loved the reunion of Emma and Charming/Snow so much. Also I love Charming. Period. (david sucked)

Just the way they interacted with Emmate from that point on. In Rumple's store "Emma come on, it's time to go" like she's a child! Charming more adult and fatherly about it (fangirl moment!) It's fantastic and also I think it's going to work into the plot of Emma's grown and they missed her childhood and can't get it back. Shes going to get sick of them coddling her.

babyhood everything is stripped from them and you can tell all Snow wants is her daughter back but she lacks all the parenting childhood memories that go with it. Its going to hurt her eventually. We must all live with the choices we make. Like Emma said... Which curse was worse?

David didn't really interact with Emma much in season 1 (not that I recall at least). So to see him tear up over her in two was endearing. Also I feel like him and Emma have more in common. She would have been a Daddy's girl ;) lol yes I love the parent plot and I think it has so much to offer in terms of family turmoil. I'm really glad snow and Emma are in FTL together. It will give Snow the chance to "mother" Emma the way she wanted since Emma has no mental grasp of FTL whatsoever: she'd be child-like in that situation and looking for guidance. I give the writers a serious two thumbs on in terms of this whole plot development!

Can you tell I'm excited for TOMORROW!!!! I'm rambling on and on and on. Lol.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I've been gone all day but I'm back and excited for the episode too! Only a few more minutes before my dvr starts taping it!

Yes, that is why I love the theory too. It would tangle things up so nicely and it would be excellent to see Rumpel expanding his protectiveness to this new part of his family.

Emma got the worst of the Curse by far. Her parents come in second for losing her childhood. However, staying would not have been better. Either Emma would have been killed as an infant or she would be an infant forever and probably forever apart from Snow.

I agree that splitting them up the way they did gives us a great chance for mother/daughter bonding and it will be interesting to see how their relationship changes now that everyone knows who they are. I do rather wish we could have gotten some more Charming and Emma bonding though before the portal! I see them as a lot alike and I want to have them interact.

[ladynomad915.livejournal.com]

that was the best twist finding out the fairytale side was present day and not the best. all through the episode i kept wondering who mulan, phillip, and aurora were in Storybrooke only to find out that they dont exist there.

when Whale had said to Charming your not my king and James didnt even know who whale was I kept wondering if hes not a fairytale then what is he. was cool to find out in episode 5 and also how his name was created on the show.