Questions and Discussion Points for The Stranger

[chloris.livejournal.com]

A little later than usual but it's time for my questions and discussion points about The Stranger! Just two more of these to go before the season is over. *sigh*

1. Okay. We have to admit it now - August is indeed Pinocchio and this show believes in going straight from a to b instead of fooling us and going over to j instead. If you wanted him to be Pinocchio did the reveal work for you? And, if you didn't, are you now fine with it? I did fight it right to end but now it completely works and I'm happy he is Pinocchio.

2. Do I even look like him? Yes Pinocchio, actually you do a lot like Bae all grown up. However, you don't look a lot like yourself. Did this bother you as viewer or did you decide to handwave it away?

3. What Geppetto did: understandable or not? I think it was understandable considering the curse was likely to turn Pinocchio back to wood and possibly kill him forever but, at the same time, it was incredibly selfish to reduce everyone's chances of regaining their lives by leaving Emma without an adult to protect her.

4. Was that the fastest lasagna on record or what? A proper baked lasagna is an afternoon project not something you whip up in 30 minutes. Though with fresh (or no precook) noodles and the sauce already made it could be done I suppose. Yes, I'm stuck on the magical lasagna not the bit where David managed to resist Regina's advances. His resistance I put down to him basically being a decent guy, if rather weak willed, and some Charmingness peaking through. The lasagna I want to figure out! Ah well, at least I managed to satisfy my own lasagna craving by making a quick, stovetop, deconstructed version.

5. So, we are in a world without magic (we wouldn't want Rumpelstiltskin to dabble) but Emma deciding to stay in town managed to turn August's leg to wood all the way around the world? Hmmmm.

6. Not to mention the very existence of the curse, the heart vault, and the hat seemingly working. All of this means there must be a hole punched between the universes by the curse which allows magic to flow through from FTL into our world, but any magic also must have been contained within Storybrooke until Emma arrived and put a crack in the curse allowing some magic out. Then the question is why magic will turn Pinocchio back to wood and not power the dagger? Do the writers even know or is all because the plot said so?

7. Mr. Gold definitely got his equilibrium back after last week! I suppose the enjoyment and satisfaction of figuring out who August is was enough to make him feel better about everything. Did he expect that August would succeed with Emma or did he expect it to fail though still be worth trying? He certainly has no trust in August as his big laugh about it indicates. Oh, and Mr. Gold laughing = win. They should write in more reasons for Gold to laugh.

8. Was baby Emma completely adorable or what? What a cruel, cruel show to subject such cuteness to the horrors of the foster system. What do the writers have against the foster system that they couldn't give her even one good home with caring foster parents? And how likely is it that healthy, white, adorable baby Emma would not have been adopted as soon as she was available?

9. And now the time for payment is due for Geppetto's actions. All magic has a price and the price of saving Pinocchio means that Storybrooke is stuck with a savior who completely refuses to accept her role down to not even being able to see the leg as wood. Emma has barely gotten used to the idea of having a friend she deeply cares about and a son she loves. After spending her whole life making as few connections as possible and never taking responsibility for anyone else it is a big ask to tell her she need to saves everyone so I understand. Not that it isn't frustrating to watch.

10. Kidnapping? Not her best move! However, if she left town it could work since Regina's power only extends to the town limits. Still, that completely scotches any chance of legal custody I would think. Unless of course they go back and Regina never knows Emma was taking him away in the first place.

11. Even if Regina never finds out about the kidnapping, she quite definitely had a very bad day. Henry told her off; Mary Margaret forgave her; and David turned her down. What will she do next?

Comments

[tamlover.livejournal.com]

1. I didn't want it (wanted August to be his own person) and I don't like. I feel it changed the story presented in the pilot, and it felt like a retcon. I worry that it means I can't really trust anything I see - later we'll just find out there was something else going on all along. I've accepted it, but every time I actually think about it, it irritates me.

2. Annoys me even more. A massive, massive, cheat, IMO.

3. Both understandable and selfish. He convinced himself it would be okay, wouldn't lessen Emma's chances of breaking the curse, because that's what he *wanted* to believe.

4. I've no idea how to make a lasagna - is it the sort of thing that could be made up in advanced and then refrigerated until you wanted to bake? I don't even know how long it takes to bake.

6. Yes, another annoying issue. I have no idea how it works. However, does that mean the new hat has different portals than the old hat? It seemed the old one wouldn't take anyone to this world?

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. I didn't expect the pilot to give us ALL the information about the characters and the plot so I have no trouble with finding out there was another layer there which we are now seeing. In fact, considering how well it ties together various strands from the season as a whole, I see it as a reveal and not at all as retcon.

2. Since I'm happy with the reveal I've made my peace with his appearance. *g* It take me some time let go of the 'what? he looks nothing like Pinocchio?' feelings however.

3. He definitely rationalized it! As a parent I understand but it could easily have doomed the town forever.

4. I'll go with that - she made it ahead and then simply put it in the oven once she lured David inside. That goes perfectly with the blank note and gives her a chance to wow David with the meal while also not getting a hair out of place.

6. Why wouldn't the hat have an entrance to our world? Just because the Blue Fairy said so? We know she is an accomplished liar when it suits her so I'm not going to take her word for it.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

If anything we should be worried about the Blue Fairy since techincally she has her hands in a lot of these deals and she seems to screw over everyone involved as long as her outcome comes out as she wants too, just like Rumpel. I'm starting to think he was right in "Price of Gold" that the fairies aren't as good as they appear.

1. I'm happy he's not Bae, this show is NOT ready for that given it can't even establish a logical timeline! We basically have two at this point, JANE!OUAT and everyone elses. I'd rather it be Doctor Whale (though he's probably Monstro) or someone else.

2. Children change, including hair as they grow and mature. As someone on my twitter feed who is a faithful fan has defended, her child was born blonde, went red and is now a brunette or some form of that order. My brother in law's facial hair comes in hued red when he's got like brown hair. Its genetics or hair dye. Given Pinoc doesn't have a mother, per say, (in his actual story he refers to the Blue Fairy as his Mother ♥ )

3. He had every right as a parent to protect his own child. The fairy broke her deal, that was unfair. Either way it was bound to happen that way given if Emma grew up with Mary we wouldn't have the show this way with Emma in such denial. There's no away around that.

4. The only magic in that town is the microwaves/stove time cooking apparently ;)

5. I believe his leg was able to change due to the Curse's first waver, or maybe the Fairies are involved, they are up to something.

6. As I said, we have two plotlines and cannons at this point due to having Jane as a writer. I think the dagger is in it's own little bubble of magic and power. Its being blocked curse, given the deal with Regina? Because he said he wanted comfort and such but he never said 'I want a bit of magic' except for his key word.

And I don't think it reconned the pilot in the slightest, if anything it expands on it. I always KNEW that Geppetto would put Pinoc through first, he would, it's his son! He's not going to have that Curse take away the one thing he always wanted.

Though I think we were robbed of the Geppetto/Jiminy confrontation. When did Jiminy tell Geppetto the truth? Geppetto didn't know that Jiminy Cricket was Jiminy the man who killed his parents. He had to have told him. When did he do that? What did Geppetto do? Obviously he forgave him BUT he hasn't forgotten and when he needs to, he even holds that over Jiminy's head! I LOVED THAT. (And Jiminy's cute little outfits and when he was tied up in the clock. It was oddly adorable)

I hope I'm not coming off to harsh but this is how I'm interpreting the show as of right now. I've been pretty dead on so far, I called the whole plot of "The Stranger" (though they had me doubtin it for a few minutes, because I don't trust Jane's writing and then I screamed when I was right. Its always a fun time in this house when I watch OUAT) and Red being the wolf.

[tamlover.livejournal.com]

2. Children change, including hair as they grow and mature. As someone on my twitter feed who is a faithful fan has defended, her child was born blonde, went red and is now a brunette or some form of that order. My brother in law's facial hair comes in hued red when he's got like brown hair. Its genetics or hair dye. Given Pinoc doesn't have a mother, per say, (in his actual story he refers to the Blue Fairy as his Mother ♥ )
I have five close relatives that have had red hair. Four of them still have red hair. More distant relatives that had red hair as children and adults and I am familiar with no others that had different hair colors as adults, but, as they are more distant, I can't say for sure and certainly can't count them all. Also, the child has dark eyes. And even beyond that, it's a cheat to the audience to change the physical appearance that much.

And right now, I think the Blue Fairy is awesome and good (though flawed). I'll revise my opinion as necessary, as we see more of her. I think she was doing her very best to save the world, and don't think she has screwed anyone.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I do agree that it seems the Blue Fairy is up to something. She has her own agenda.

1. What exactly do you find wrong with the timeline? It's a bit jumbled since they jump around in time in the flashbacks but it makes sense to me. I also would be very surprised to find out that Jane can make any big plot points without input from Kitsis and Horowitz. They are in charge of the plot points in ALL the episodes while the writers are in charge of the dialog and characterization. It's their overall vision and the show is going where they want.

3. I completely understand him wanting to protect his son and, as a viewer, I know that Emma needed to be the way she is for the show to work, but it was still incredibly selfish for him to endanger everyone for Pinocchio. Emma would not be out of line to be angry with him.

6. *shrug* If the dagger doesn't work it's because the showrunners don't want the dagger to work. It would be nice though to have an explanation as to why some magic works and other magic does not. One thing I can think of is that all deals are still enforced - including Pinocchio's now that there is a crack in the curse to let magic out of Storybrooke. Also, they seem to be implying that Emma herself is magic or at least a conduit for magic.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

The issues with the timeline is human!Rumpel took place 100s or so prior to the pilot, then we have a second Orge war that comes in though he stopped the fist. Plus what is dictation who ages? Belle and Bae should be dead given how long ago (the magic excuse only works do much when characters like Granny and Geppetto have aged)

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Well, stopping one war doesn't stop all war forever so with time Ogres attacked again. I do believe the characters have mentioned at least three Ogre wars with Belle's story coming in the last one shortly before the curse was used. (And we know it was shortly before the curse since Regina was the Evil Queen which means Skin Deep took place at most ~2-3 years before the curse.) So Belle's age is perfectly fine. As for Bae, Gold says that he traveled through time and space to find him. If we are going to have characters plucked from one world and put in another then time travel is not much more difficult.

[d-garmo71.livejournal.com]

1. I didn't want him to be Pinocchio, but I think they made it work.

2. I've seen ginger children who are brunettes as adults, I've seen freckled children who have no (or few) freckles as adults. My cousin was born with blue eyes and his eyes - while changing all the time - didn't turn brown completely until he was 7 or 8. So that I can wave away. It happens. What doesn't happen is brown eyed children turning into blue eyed adults and that ~does bother me. A lot. I also bothers me when I'm watching something with a blue eyed couple with brown eyed children. It's a real pet peeve of mine.

3. I think it's both selfish and understandable. It also made me think that Snow and Charming's decision to put Emma in the wardrobe can be seen as questionable. Yes, she is the saviour, and yes, they wanted her safe. But they had no idea where she was going to end up. Plus she was only ~minutes old and they thought she would be alone. What if Pinocchio hadn't been sent through as well? Would she have been found? Things that make you go hmmm...

5. and 6. So many plotholes when it comes to this. Archie was human, was turned into a cricket by magic and since there is no magic in this world he is now human again. That means that Pinocchio should have turned to wood in this world since he was turned into a real boy by magic. Instead he remained human until Emma - who is supposed to bring magic back - decides to stay in Storybrooke. My head is spinning. D:

10. It absolutely could work, but since Emma doesn't believe, she doesn't know that making her decision incredibly stupid. I do think they won't make it far. And with Regina's spy in jail (I presume), she might never find out. If she does find out however, I think all hell is going to break loose.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

Exactly (about knowing where she'd end up) my running joke was Pinoc was the dry run and if he didn't show up in our world, he could have gone to Narnia

[chloris.livejournal.com]

2. I know it's possible for skin and hair to change but at a gut level it didn't quite work for me. Though I am happy the characters worked on an emotional level which is what saves the August/Pinocchio thing for me. Yeah, brown eyes turning blue is much more difficult to accept than the hair! In does happen in the other direction (even long after birth) but I've never heard of eyes getting blue when starting off brown.

3. I don't think it was so much that they wanted her safe but that they knew they had to sacrifice their relationship with her in order to save everyone. I find their decision to go through with the plan to be remarkably selfless. From a logistical standpoint sending her alone was incredibly dangerous since there was no guarantee that someone would be there to make sure she lived.

5/6. I consider Archie becoming human a direct result of the curse since it took away his happy ending. As for Pinocchio, magic turned him human but wasn't required to sustain him as human so he remained fully human until Emma let the magic out and the magic noticed he had not fulfilled his part of the deal.

10. We know Emma isn't going to get far or there goes the show! *g* Regina certainly would not take it well though if she finds out.

[bloodysuicide69.livejournal.com]

5/6. To elaborate on this, the tree itself protected those who went through it from the curse. So, Pinocchio would have stayed a real boy because he was protected. That's why Ghepetto wanted him to go. Had he stayed the curse would have made him a puppet again. If it had been MM and Emma who went through, MM Would remember all her memories and fulfilled her duty to bring Emma to Storybrooke to find PC and save the people from the curse. Unfortunately... Emma got a little boy who was scared and already had a bad rep for being dishonest and cowardly. Pinocchio always had the flaw of selfishness, dishonesty and cowardice. Those are the things he had to overcome to be a human. That's why his leg is going back to wood. He was all those things.

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

3. I don't yet have kids of my own, but I know parents go bats when their kids are threatened, and it's hard to blame them for that. (Heck, I'd go bats if my godchildren were threatened.) I say totally understandable.)

[chloris.livejournal.com]

3. I am a parent and yes we do go a little nuts if you threaten our children! And I do like that they added another intensely strong parent-child bond to the show.

Oh, and I need to say that I ♥ your icon. That was another completely adorable baby.

[sweetkitten0417.livejournal.com]

1. Yes I was a little disappointed but at the same time I kept thinking "okay well at least surprise us a little bit with the finale. Just give us something shocking, please."

3. I'm a little torn, I know that he wanted to keep his son alive and not turned back into wood but, I dunno. He didn't really do what he was asked to, which was to protect Emma and guide her.

4. Never seen lasagna baked that fast! I've made lasagna a few times cause my husband loves it and it takes a long time to make. Regina does have some magic, I suppose! ;)

7. Yes! I loved hearing him laugh for the first time. There needs to be more episodes like that where he something or someone amuses him.

8. OMG I wanted to pick her up and hold her! SO CUTE!

10. I was shocked! I don't want Emma to succeed in taking Henry out of Storybrooke! If anything Henry could convince her to go back to Mary M.'s house and talk some sense into that woman!

And please, let the custody battle be saved for next season, I'm just wanting to see the last two episodes and maybe start the 2nd season with "Henry's Daddy is... and now the custody battle begins" instead of now. There are so many things left unsaid/left out that we've been waiting for, and I'd rather see those things happen instead of waiting for next season.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. I hold out hope for some surprises in the finale! They did manage the 'Red is the wolf (and Granny is too!)' surprise quite well. Also, I know that more casual viewers were surprised since my husband was.

4. I like tamlover's idea that she made it ahead and simply popped it in the oven once she lured David inside. That would have given her plenty of time to flirt with him while it baked without taking too long or requiring her to get at all mussed. Regina doesn't do mussed.

7. Rumpel laughs all the time but that is not Robert Carlyle's laugh and that is the one I want more of! I realize that what amuses him is seeing other people uncomfortable but I'm okay with that. :)

10. I doubt she is going far! It is the premise of the show after all.

[sensitivinferno.livejournal.com]

I don't mind August being Pinocchio, per se, but I do mind that he looks nothing like a little ginger kid with brown eyes. I'm really hung up on how much he doesn't look like little Pinocchio, more than the fact that he actually is that character.

And about some magic working...or perhaps starting to work only after Emma arrived...I have faith that they will explain that. After all, we only saw Gold use his "please" after Emma's arrival, as well.

The Blue Fairy is up to something. I don't trust that chick AT ALL. But the real culprit in this story is Geppetto. He was an adult who trusted a SEVEN YEAR OLD to look after the Savior who was destined to save them all. He expected a child to be mature and responsible. I'm sure August blames himself for Emma's jadedness, but he did what any scared child under pressure would probably do. No, it was Geppetto who made the selfish decision that is currently dooming them all. Things would have been a lot different if Snow had gone through with Emma. They'd have probably broken the curse by now.

I was actually proud of David, for once! Way to man up!

Emma is pissing me off.

That is all. XD

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's too bad they couldn't have already had Eion Bailey signed up and then they could have picked a child who looked more like him. Little Pinocchio is quite adorable though so I'm torn!

I can get behind a theory that magic didn't work (other than that which powered the curse of course) until Emma came. Jefferson did say she brought magic to town and I think he would know.

Things would have been a lot different if Snow had gone through with Emma. They'd have probably broken the curse by now.

Yes! I think they would have! I do have trouble coming down too hard on Geppetto though since I understand his fear. A life without his son was not worth contemplating.

David did good. He was as noble and decent as you would expect but didn't fall for her machinations. I get the feeling the writers realized that there was no coming back from that for his character.

[maidenjedi]

Re: magic in this world. Clearly there is crossover on magic. The curse sent them here, the stipulation on Pinocchio's humanity works here, etc. Emma's arrival in Storybrooke appears to be the trigger that lets magic work here.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I agree that there is clearly a link between the worlds now and magic is flowing from FTL to our world. What I wonder is what is the criterion for magic to work. Gold's please works (but that's in the curse), deals with either Gold or the Blue Fairy must be kept (always within Storybrooke and now outside as well), hearts can be crushed, but the dagger doesn't and Ruby isn't a werewolf. It's all rather vague!