Questions for Stable Boy

[chloris.livejournal.com]

A little later than usual this week but I have my questions and discussion points for Stable Boy. \o/

1. Let's start with the end - Kathryn. Who is OBVIOUSLY not dead. *g* It's implied that Mr. Gold had her all this time (he worked some magic) though he may have only known where she was and have not kidnapped her himself. Not that I think he is incapable of kidnapping someone; it all depends on how many twists they want in the story. Now the question is, whose heart is that really? I suppose it could be Kathryn's though those hearts don't look like regular flesh and blood hearts, but DNA evidence is easy enough to fake if you control the reference sample.

2. In what I think is the first in-Storybrooke flashback we see that not only was Gold involved, it was All His Idea. (Which is another point in favor of him holding Kathryn - he is not going to make a deal that would not benefit him and where he did not hold all the cards.) Now on the surface he makes the deal to get out from under the assault charges but, while that is a benefit, it's too small so I don't buy it. Why did he make that deal? All a plan to weaken Regina? Or something else? Finding out some of what is going on in his head can't come soon enough for me.

3. Did Mr. Gold honor his agreement with Regina? Mary Margaret is off the hook and Kathryn is alive which is not exactly what she was expecting. However I believe he did! He never promised her anything or at least not anything he hasn't already delivered. The deal was mostly supposition and inference. If, then, and maybe. You would think that Regina would learn by now to nail him down on the fine print.

4. And the next question is will Regina think he honored the agreement? And what will she do if she decides she has been betrayed? Maybe that is what he was looking for in return. He would know how she would react and maybe he is counting on that to further his own plans.

5. So, Cora has the heart snatching ability! Where did she get it? A deal with Rumpel? (It appears she is the Miller's Daughter after all.) And how does Regina get it and the rest of the powers? In Heart of Darkness, Rumpelstiltskin says that Snow White would become irrevocably evil by killing Regina since the evil would transfer and that she would gain Regina's powers. Perhaps we will see Regina kill Cora next season?

6. If Cora is indeed the Miller's Daughter, why is the family name Mills? It seems a very patriarchal society so I would expect the family name to come from the father. (I did have a crack theory that Henry was the Miller's Son and that would be the twist.) However, Cora is definitely in charge so maybe that's why her name is passed on.

7. However, Henry being so subservient does raise the question of whether he could possibly be the king in the story. (And a point in favor of my crack theory. *g*) I guess we'll have to see how they handle the story since I doubt it will be quite like the one we know.

8. Was Regina's turn to the dark side believable? I think it was for two reasons. First, this is only the beginning. Regina isn't evil yet - as with Snow in Heart of Darkness, she has only taken the first steps on the road but unlike Snow she doesn't have True Love to save her. And, second, everything that happened in this episode was All About Snow White. Everything from the rescue, to the marriage, to Daniel's death can be directly related to Snow's very existence. Yes, it all also can be related to mom (and I'm sure she pays too) but Snow is the symbol of Regina's captivity.

9. Do you have more sympathy for Regina knowing that she started as someone good and caring? Or has everything she has done since then erased any sympathy even if you now understand her better?

10. In addition to Kathryn still being alive, King George is still alive! And he is the DA in Storybrooke. Interesting. Considering he didn't seem to be ruling his kingdom in the Pilot nor was he at the wedding (maybe his invite was lost in the mail? *g*) I thought for sure he was long dead. Now I'm wondering if he teamed up with Regina and was also deposed. That would explain his position of power in Storybrooke: a reward.

11. Should I ask about August and who he might be? As far as I can tell the writers have thrown out so many clues in so many directions that it's all guesses at this point. What I hope is that his character makes sense once we do know who he is and all the cryptic clues don't end up contradicting each other, which can be problem in writing twists that are secret from the audience.

Comments

[grlnamedlucifer.livejournal.com]

2. I know since Skin Deep people seem to think he's secretly a good guy, but this episode gives me hope that my original theory of him being the actual Big Bad still has potential. Because there is no one he's not fucking over with this plan. Emma puts herself in his debt, again (what ever happened to the girl who stood up to him because she hated his methods? I hope they're going somewhere with this.). Mary Margaret's reputation is permanently damaged (yes she's off the hook, but she was still arrested and basically confessed and all). And Regina, of course, will now be known to have set MM up for murder.

Not to mention the actual victim in all this, Kathryn, who looks like she went through hell in the meantime. If Gold didn't kidnap her himself, he certainly knew what happens to people when they try to leave isn't good.

8. I definitely found it believable. (Normal disclaimer that understanding and justifying her actions are two different things.) For the reasons you state, but also because Snow's betrayal was the last straw for her. The story of her life was that her opinions on her life don’t matter because everyone else knows how to live it better than she does. Cora mentally, physically, and emotionally abused her, shooting down any choices she made for herself (from how she dressed herself to accepting the proposal for her), attempting to force her into the role she wanted for her because "mother knows best." Her father did nothing to stop it, so it's easily read as approval. After Cora kills Daniel, the only way to happiness Regina could see, she was practically broken. And then here’s Snow saying “oh I know you specifically begged me not to do this, but I knew it would make you happy so I did it anyways!” Yet another person doing something "for her own good." From Regina’s perspective, it doesn’t matter that Snow genuinely believed that she was doing the right thing, because it was yet another person saying her opinion on her life didn't matter. So she snapped. And instead of taking her anger out on her powerful abusive mother (who had just displayed her power really freaking effectively), she focuses it on this child who poses no real physical threat. And considering she then has to raise this child that (intentional or not) caused her only happiness to be destroyed, yeah, it's totally understandable to me.

10. LOL actually the saddest thing for me in this episode was that George clearly survived FTL. I cannot stand him, so I was disappointed to see he survived to annoy the Charmings another day.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

2. He is certainly screwing over everyone isn't he? I do love the character but I feel no need to excuse him. He not good AT ALL but I'm on the fence about just how evil he is. With Regina it's all out in the open and she's clearly EVIL (though certainly with some complexity) He's not noble or nice or a misunderstood woobie but until we know what he wants it's hard to pin him down except as someone who believes quite clearly that the ends justify the means.

Kathryn chose to leave on her own so I don't see Gold as having anything to do with that and I'm also of the opinion that he never intended to send Mary Margaret away. That doesn't mean he didn't hold Kathryn and drug her while his plan played out.

8. Yes, there is understanding and there is justifying. Like you, I understand why she is the way she is now. A lot of the discussion I've seen about this either woobifies Regina while demonizing Snow or expresses disappointment in the episode since they're under the impression that this is all there is to the story and Regina is now *poof* evil. This is just the beginning - there is plenty more story and about 15 years for the writers to mine. What this does show is how Snow White came to be at the root of her problems.

10. Yes! I can't stand him either! He is not even fun to hate.

[grlnamedlucifer.livejournal.com]

2. Oh no, I didn't mean to imply that Gold had to do with her leaving. Just that he knew something bad would happen and, in particular, seemed to know what that would be. (Whether in a vague sense or a "and I know you'll put her away somewhere" sort of way or whatever.) And that his plan did center on the fact that Kathryn would be stuck wherever it was she was stuck in for however long it took.

8. I've seen some demonizing of Snow as well, and I really don't get that. Outright calling her a bitch and wanting Regina to kill her? Really? She was a child who made a horrible mistake, she's not actively responsible for how Regina interprets her actions. Yes, she shouldn't have told a secret she promised to keep, but that's hardly the crime of the century. I am all for empathizing with Regina, obviously, but that's a little over-invested.

(I have seen some theories, though, that Snow's "no one should lose their mother" was also about Snow. That she wanted Regina for her mother and she knew if Regina ran away she would lose her. I don't ascribe any evil intent to that at all, I think it mostly still stemmed from a desire to help Regina and I certainly don't think she had any clue what her actions would cause. But I do like the idea that she does have that little bit of selfishness to her, like a doted-on princess would have. But again, Regina's perspective on Snow's actions are the cause of the problem, not Snow's actions themselves.)

>Regina is now *poof* evil. This is just the beginning - there is plenty more story and about 15 years for the writers to mine. <

*nods* While I think Regina's hate for Snow certainly started here (and then only grew), I don't think the Regina we see at the end of the episode is the same Regina who would curse an entire land just to get back at one girl. I think the way Regina gains her power is going to have a big effect on that - she still has to learn magic after all and there's her mother to get rid of, whether she ended up killing her (as Heart of Darkness implied) or banishing her (if you believe she's the Queen of Hearts) I definitely think Regina had a hand in it.

10. Seriously. And I don't even get him anyways - who demands someone to love someone in an arranged marriage? I seriously doubt the treaty would be less useful if Charming and Abigail only tolerated each other.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

2. Yeah, he and Regina seem to know what happens to people who leave. And it doesn't seem to be a simple case of having their car break down. What did Regina expect to happen to Mary or to Hansel and Gretel?

8. I've seen the theories of Snow being selfish and telling for that reason but it doesn't work for me in the context of the episode. Snow seemed certain at the end that Regina was marrying Daniel and that she had reunited mother and daughter. Only if Snow turns out to be quite a bit more deceitful than I think she is would I believe she was trying to get Regina as her mother.

10. That made no sense to me! George went from 'I don't care how you feel - you're getting married' to 'you better damn well love her' and as far as I can tell love doesn't have anything to do with arranged marriages in fairytale land. I guess he's very controlling and wanted Charming's complete obedience? Either way, he can die now. I would not cry.

[d-garmo71.livejournal.com]

I don't think the Regina we see at the end of the episode is the same Regina who would curse an entire land just to get back at one girl.

Exactly! Regina aimed her rage at Snow and Snow alone at first. She clearly tried to hurt/kill her before. She didn't end up making a deal with Rumple until all of her attempts failed and it looked like Snow was getting her happy ending with Charming. At that point Regina became desperate. And we all know what Rumple's speciality is. ;)

[tamlover.livejournal.com]

(I have seen some theories, though, that Snow's "no one should lose their mother" was also about Snow. That she wanted Regina for her mother and she knew if Regina ran away she would lose her. I don't ascribe any evil intent to that at all, I think it mostly still stemmed from a desire to help Regina and I certainly don't think she had any clue what her actions would cause. But I do like the idea that she does have that little bit of selfishness to her, like a doted-on princess would have. But again, Regina's perspective on Snow's actions are the cause of the problem, not Snow's actions themselves.)
I cannot agree with this assessment. It's not logical. It doesn't match what we saw on-screen. Snow was *not* trying to get Regina for her mother - she couldn't have been, because she was so happy about having told and everything turning out well (she thought) between Regina and Cora when she still thought Regina was marrying Daniel. Snow associated telling Cora with Regina marrying Daniel and living happily ever after, with both her mother and her boyfriend.

[tamlover.livejournal.com]

Absolute kudos on #2 - I feel the same way about Rumpelstiltskin. I know he's cursed, but I cannot stand the person he is now and want to see him lose so badly. I loathe the notion of him as ultimately a good guy. As a bad guy, he lacks the emotional connection that Regina has to the Charming family, but he's so much *better* at it.

I agree with you about George, too.

As for Regina - sorry, she gets no sympathy or understanding for her hatred of Snow to me. It isn't understandable. It isn't even *sane*, and if Regina had previously shown signs of mental instability, maybe it would make sense, but she hasn't (IMO). She's been evil, but not crazy. To me, it exactly what I thought it would be - her irrationally and unfairly blaming and hating Snow with no justification at all, and I hate trying to twist it to make Regina's hatred anyone else's fault but her own.

[lyana rodriguez (from livejournal.com)]

Actually, while I definitely don't think Rumpel is a good guy, he's not evil either. He's the first really gray character I've seen in a while. He plays both sides because the only side he's on is his own.

[tamlover.livejournal.com]

I loathe "gray" characters - they are just bad guys with excuses, IMO. I do know they are generally beloved by audiences, deemed complex and interesting. It just doesn't work that way for me. But I acknowledge myself as having a fair degree of "black and white" thinking - it's how I'm made.

However, I don't think of Rumpelstiltskin as gray - he's just not on either Regina's or Snow's side. He's on his own side. At least from what we've seen. As yet, we have no idea what he's trying to accomplish. If he's ultimately trying to accomplish something good or something evil or something in between. Without knowing his goal, we lack a certain insight.

[d-garmo71.livejournal.com]

Yet another person doing something "for her own good."

To me this really explains why it was so easy for Regina to transfer the blame from Cora to Snow. In that moment Snow ~became Cora from Regina's pov.

[grlnamedlucifer.livejournal.com]

*nods* It makes me wonder what would have happened if Snow had said she told by accident. I'm sure she'd still hate Snow, since it still resulted in Daniel being killed, but I wonder if she would have still been able to redirect all of the blame onto her without the Cora association. (I also wonder if knowing the whole situation - that Cora played on Snow's mother-issues to manipulate it out of her - would have affected Regina's reaction at all. It would be interesting to see if the whole story was in Henry's book as well.)

[storywriter84.livejournal.com]

My DVR cut the ending off and I didn't even realize it! I didn't know that Katherine (for sure) was still alive. I suspected, because her fairytale boyfriend was still around, but didn't know for sure.

I can't wait until the next episode!

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Yes, it was the big cliffhanger! Ruby ran up to Emma yelling, leading to Emma finding Kathryn in an alley all dirty and dazed, and then CREDITS. Followed by three weeks to wait until we see more. *taps foot impatiently*

[storywriter84.livejournal.com]

Thank goodness for Hulu. I'm going to try and rewatching the whole thing today or tomorrow. I apparently didn't get all of the beginning either. How am I just noticing this all now? Either way, still very excited about the next episode.

PS - I can sort of see why Regina has it out for Snow but it seems to me that her mother is
more at fault. She did arrange for Snow and the runaway horse. Also, she physically killed Daniel. I'm sure there's more to the story but I'm not totally sold on this all-consuming rage she has quite yet.

[tamlover.livejournal.com]

1 & 2 - I do think it's more likely Rumpelstiltskin held Kathryn than not - it gives him more control. I'd be curious as to if any brainwashing-type stuff was done to Kathryn while she was held or anything that would make him more able to use her later. Not sure what she'd be used for, but it's always nice to have another tool available, I guess.

3. NO, he did not honor the agreement. Even if the words technically make it work, it's a technicality, and is in no way honoring the deal as it was understood by Regina and he knew it. I feel the same way about the deal with Ashley - there's absolutely no honor there on his part. Just word games intended to deceive. But then, that's what I expect from a bad guy.

4. Of course, Regina won't think he honored the agreement - he didn't. But I'm not sure how much she can do about it.

5. I do hope to see Regina kill Cora - but I emphatically do not not want there to be any sort of magical evil-transference. We already did that Rumpelstiltskin. For Regina, I want to see her make a choice, to have free will and know what she's doing and choose her path willingly.

6. Well, is Mills only their name in Storybrooke (not the Enchanted Forest?). If so, I'd say it's because Regina's mother shaped her more than her father did.

7. Don't think Henry's a king. I don't really care about the backstory, but I guess we'll see it.

10. Huge deal there - I have no idea what to expect now. I really did think he had died and that left Charming in charge. Not sure if I think he'd work with Regina - he'd be sure to get the short end of the stick, and he might realize that. Besides, Thomas' father seemingly got a cushy Storybrooke existence, and I certainly don't think he worked with Regina.

11. I don't know what to think. I hope he's not Pinocchio. I am firmly against anyone else having used the wardrobe - it's a cheat to me, directly contradicting the previously stated rule that only one could be saved. Sure, you can call it a ret-con or, more generously, say it was a planned twist all along or maybe fudge it (he was carved out of that tree originaly), but it still feels like a cheat to me. Plus, I want Gepetto to get to raise his child. I don't think he's Bae - the age is all wrong. Only other theory I've heard is Regina's brother - just don't see any evidence to support it. I don't know what to expect, and have no theories of my own.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

3. Everything he promised her did happen even if the results (not promised only speculated) did not. Personally I have no trouble with him trifling with technicalities in his deals. Nor do I think it makes him evil, but it doesn't make him good either, more grey. While Ashley would not be expected to know how dangerous it is to deal with him (and I have a great deal of sympathy for her), I would think that Regina would be harder to fool.

4. But I'm not sure how much she can do about it.

This would a good time to use Belle.

5. Considering that evil/power transference is already canon in the case of Snow (almost) killing the Evil Queen, you're probably not going to get your wish. However, it could still be Regina's choice so long as she is aware of what will happen if she kills her mother. It's one thing to be tricked or to simply not know the evil will take you over and another to decide to take the evil into yourself.

10. Hmmm...you're right about Thomas' father. It does make me wonder how the curse chose people's lives. So far all we really know is that it removed all happy endings.

11. I hope he's not Pinocchio too! At least not in any way that uses the cabinet or the magic tree. I suppose a separate deal with Rumpel is possible but I don't like that either. It does feel like a cheat. Emma is supposed to be special because she escaped the curse. She is less special if others did as well.

[sensitivinferno.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I don't think we've met the real Big Bad yet. I think Rumple is Chaotic Neutral. He can be good, and he can be bad, but everything is for his own ultimate goal. We just don't know what that is, yet. It goes back to the million dollar question, "why did he make the curse to end all curses in the first place?"

I just re-watched the episode a little while ago, and his wording to Regina regarding the deal WAS rather vague. He spoke in "this could happen" but never what WOULD assuredly happen. Yes, she should know better. But he knows how to recognize a desperate soul.

What can Regina do to retaliate? Exactly what I think she's going to do. He's going to get Belle'd.

The episode did make me empathize with Regina, though that doesn't mean I think she's justified in any way. People who are abused in the way Cora abused Regina (emotionally, physically, mentally, magically...) often have a hard time blaming their tormentor because they're basically brainwashed. At the time, it was easier to blame Snow. Over the years, I assume that her feelings twisted even further. I wonder if gaining the magical power helped aid in that, as well? There are certain themes in the show. Love Conquers All, Evil Isn't Born, and All Magic Comes With a Price. It seems to me that the two most powerful characters have had the shittiest lives out of everyone. Is magic the real culprit here?

And yes, King Charles Whidmore George sucks.

I have a strong feeling that the Blue Fairy may be a bad person...er...fairy. There's a reason Rumple hates the fairies, and in "Dreamy" we saw her being all HBIC and it didn't seem quite right that she was making decisions for others. Taking away Nova's choice is no better than what Cora did to Regina. So, yes, either her or the Queen of Hearts will play a larger role in the future, IMO.

As for August...I have no idea. After the preview for "The Return" I'm more in the Bae camp, but he'd either still be 14, or 42. And August is not 42. It's really confusing. I hope he ends up not being Bae OR Pinocchio and ends up being someone that surprises us all.

[lyana rodriguez (from livejournal.com)]

I agree on almost all accounts. I think we'll find out more about why Rumpel made the Curse next episode. I definitely think that he's going to benefit from Emma breaking the curse. I wish there were more clues to that.

I empathized with Regina as well, but the fact that she blamed a little girl for this is just so absurd to me.

Considering that the Blue Fairy is going to be in the next episode involving Rumpel and Bae, we are going to find out VERY soon why he hates fairies.

[d-garmo71.livejournal.com]

I think we'll find out more about why Rumpel made the Curse next episode.

The press release for the next ep says Rumplestiltskin agrees to comply and do whatever it takes if his son can find a way for him to safely give up his powers and turn back into the loving man he used to be. Could that be his reason for creating and ultimately breaking the "curse to end all curses"? Regina will pay the price for using magic since she is the one who enacted the curse. So Rumple's hands are clean there.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Until we know what he wants, it is VERY hard to tell where he stands. Why did he make it and why did he want someone else to cast it? (Perhaps because it requires a heart.)

So vague. He is completely a Trickster Character. He promised her help with Mary Margaret, that MM would get the blame, and that she would run if given the chance. Everything else Regina read between the lines.

What can Regina do to retaliate? Exactly what I think she's going to do. He's going to get Belle'd.

Yep! I'd say when the most powerful man in town has just doublecrossed you it's time to pull out Belle. I wonder if Regina has her heart? I don't think she has most of the character's hearts but Belle was her prisoner in FTL and grabbing her heart seems smart.

It seems to me that the two most powerful characters have had the shittiest lives out of everyone. Is magic the real culprit here?

Perhaps! Perhaps that's the price of having magic - you can only have either magic or happiness.

As for August...I have no idea.

Maybe he's Bae's grandson, or other descendant depending how many generations Rumpel has been the Dark One. I also hope to be surprised though.

[wily-one24.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about #8 and it is totally believable from a psychological perspective that Regina would completely and totally blame Snow.

It is heavily implied that Cora was abusive, at the very least hyper-controlling and Regina suffered for this. I think it's safe to say her emotional point of view in this family would be that of an abused child, with Cora being the abuser.

In that case, when Daniel was killed, it was the last straw, a culmination of a lifetime of fear. Regina was angry, rightly so, at the injustice of his killing.

But she was mentally, physically and emotionally incapable of placing that blame on Cora. The woman who made her literally helpless. There was no conceivable way for her to confront or even face the fact that her mother had killed the love of her life.

And because energy is neither created nor destroyed, only transferred, Regina's brain did the only thing it could to survive. It blamed the one figure in the whole situation that was not a threat to her, could not hurt her.

Much like any cycle of abuse Regina then turned that blame into a lifetime of anger, hatred and abuse towards Snow.

She could not win against her mother, the only way to survive was to become her, gathering her power by beating down a lesser force.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Yes this about how I see it too. On the surface it seems rather weak. Why wouldn't she blame her mother? Why blame a child? But once you think about the psychology of it, it makes perfect sense.

[rose-papillon.livejournal.com]

I have a question, and I feel a little silly for asking it, but where was "the millers daughter" mentioned before this episode? I know it was, because everyone else in fandom seems to remember it, but I'm stumped!

[chloris.livejournal.com]

In the first scene of Daniel and Regina in the stables, they talk about running away to marry and Daniel says something to the effect of Cora being the daughter of a miller. (...and why would she be so upset that he's a stable boy.) It's quick line and not dwelt on but definitely mentioned.

[rose-papillon.livejournal.com]

Is that the only mention in the series? I got the impression that perhaps it was mentioned in a previous episode as well.