What Happened to Frederick Discussion Questions

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I have my discussion questions for What Happened to Frederick!

I won't even ask where Rumpel/Gold was in this episode since it is obvious he was having some alone time with his cup. :D

1. I will start with a question which has no answer so far but we can have theories. This is fandom after all. Theories are what we do. And porn. Yes, anyway, the question: What was August doing with the book??? Making a copy? Adding new pages? Aging the old pages? Aging new pages? Soaking them in magic water? Something else?

2. And what was Storybrooke Frederick doing on the road out of town? Was he drawn down the road (by the curse?) so he could find the car? Or can people leave so long as they intend to come back? Just popping to the next town for supplies = good; leaving FOREVER = bad

3. August W. Booth. His real name? It could be I suppose but it sounds so over-the-top. And why do I really want him to be the wizard in The Wizard of Oz? See, that's the problem with dragging his identity out so long (never mind his name): I fear the answer is going to sound so prosaic when put up against all our theories.

4. As for David, is he weak or is he actually strong for managing to resist the curse enough to end his marriage even if he wasn't completely honest with Kathryn? Or maybe you don't care anymore and want this plot to move on? Personally I think while he seems weak, it did take a great force of will for him to get the words out (he could barely focus and remember what he was saying) AND I'm rather over it and want Charming back.

5. I did think it was an excellent plan to have lots of Charming in this episode so we could be reminded that he is really a decisive and brave man when he is not cursed. Anyone else amused when he was completely dumbfounded at Abigail's lack of interest in him? Sorry, Charming you seem like a pretty great guy and Snow is completely into you but that doesn't mean all women are falling over themselves to be with you.

6. And why didn't he just fill his bottle and run? Maybe he already knew that couldn't work since the siren would stop him from leaving no matter what?

7. True Love's Kiss seems to be a well known remedy for magical ailments. Rather like taking an aspirin or a cough drop. So, why was Rumpelstiltskin so shocked that Belle might have tried a kiss? She knew - since he has told her - he was a man before and she was certainly capable of deducing that his present state was a curse of some kind. Yes, she DIDN'T know until the Queen told her but Abigail and Charming talked about it as though it was general, common knowledge.

8. Mary certainly got most of the blame here didn't she? We didn't see anyone tsking at David. Writer bias or should we be seeing the hand of Regina behind this? I can see her starting a whisper campaign about that tramp Mary and how she took advantage of the poor, recently recovered coma victim and broke up his marriage with her evil, womanly ways.

9. This curse is AWESOME its detail! Not only do people have false memories, but we have false pictures of those false memories, AND we have false transcripts of false memories of college that will get you into REAL schools! Or maybe it was a false acceptance? Since there was no way she was ever going to get to this school, it doesn't have to be real.

10. And why Boston? It's like the Emerald City. A mythical place of promise that is always just out of reach. After so many mentions of Boston on the show I'm beginning to think it is the only city that was specifically included in the curse. It's far enough away that you are not going to visit for the afternoon but close enough that you could go visit it easily if you wanted. And it gives the sense to the residents that there is a world out there with places other than Storybrooke.

11. To end: What happened to Kathryn? Wandering lost in the woods? Taken by Regina's minions to a secret hiding hole? Perhaps near Belle? (Now I want fic of the two of them talking.) Taken by someone else for reasons which will be made clear in future episodes? I'm going with minions. We know Regina didn't do it herself, and though it seems like she has trouble delegating (see personal tagging of Mary's car for proof), why be Queen if you don't use minions sometimes?

Comments

[autophanous.livejournal.com]

I'd like to believe that regina is behind all the badmouthing of MM -- it fits in with her modus operandi, after all. everything with kathryn ties in for the same reason; of everyone, snow has always been the big adversary. regina was the one who brought kathryn to david's bedside back when he woke up, right? to me, it makes sense that kathryn's very existence -- regardless of whether she's present in storybrooke or not -- is one of regina's main weapons to hurt snow.

[impalalove]

I thought they already confirmed it Regina had started it, at least; since we saw the spray paint can in her drawer.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

We did see the spray paint, yes, so we know she did the car but it is only implied that she was egging everyone on. (Or at least using her - likely poorly paid - minions to make sure it was Mary who got all the blame.)

[akinarei.livejournal.com]

As impalalove said, it was confirmed that Regina was behind the attacks on Mary Margaret. Even if she didn't do the deeds herself, she orchestrated whomever did. But the spray paint in her drawer is a dead give away.

[autophanous.livejournal.com]

I'm actually kind of curious as to whether regina has a sort of minion network in SB. obviously, she had all of her guards, etc in FTL, but have we seen whether anybody with real loyalty to her carried over (besides sidney)?

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

I wonder if being a minion has good benefits.

With Regina, probably not. More like, "Work for me or be killed."

[autophanous.livejournal.com]

vacation time means you can spend the night at granny's.

[akinarei.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting question. I'd say she probably does even if they don't know why. Her guards came with, right? I'd say they're the minions.

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

Well, there was the Huntsman -- although that may not be what you meant by "real" loyalty. More like coerced loyalty. But you could call him a minion of sorts!

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I get the feeling much of the loyalty to her is coerced but I don't think she cares so long as they do what she wants. And I'd be surprised if they have good benefit package. That wouldn't be evil after all.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

#2 is the question I would like them to answer the most. The rest of this is annoying and writer depending really, especially true loves kiss which is a fallacy at this point because true love isn't just ONE FUCKING PERSON at this point. As the Dark Curse teaches us, it's not just the love of a boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/lover, its family love too. Or as I see it, what's true in the moment.

Anyways, rant aside, 2. I think they can leave for short periods of time (IE: Ruby did move to Boston, according to the creators, but HAD to return upon Granny's heart attack) as long as they come back within a day I tihnk they are ok to leave town.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I can't say I see any problem with the show making a distinction between romantic love (true love's kiss) and other sorts of love (which can be used for other sorts of magic but not curse breaking).

Also, I'm curious, where is the interview where they say that? This is first I've heard that anyone has left at all. I wonder if they are going to make that canon in Ruby's episode.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

Its in the commentary on episode on from the Target DVD release.

Who knows at this point, Jane *GAGS* wrote it so it's whatever she feels is best, not what's actually already established. Like Ashley dringing underage...

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

Also I do believe they will gear up for a Wizard of Oz episode because the creators in the commentary for episode one do go "Yes those are the flying monkeys from WOZ".

Though I want it to take the Tin Man approach...screw that, FULL CROSSOVER!! In my mind, the Enchanted Forest is huge with many kingdoms, then there are the badlands near Agraba, which diverse off to "Underland" and The Outer Zone...

[verseblack.livejournal.com]

1. I think that Mr. Stranger was adding new stories to the book (after all, if this show keeping running, we're likely to need Henry hunting down new fairy tale characters...) So I believe he was soaking pages in the magical wishing well water and it was "printing" new stories stored on the underground lake hard drive :)

[greenbloodbitch.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I like this theory!

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of magical lake hard drive! Now that would be cool if they went there.

[themirrorofsin.livejournal.com]

Anyone else amused when he was completely dumbfounded at Abigail's lack of interest in him?

THIS!!! so priceless lol

yeah I wondered what Fred. was doing driving around like that... hm.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

LOL, I loved it. I loved that James's face was like "OMG YOU DONT LIKE ME?" I thought he was going to cry for a second XD

And I think he was out to do something, in the commentary by the creators themselves, people CAN leave. Ruby HAD moved to Boston but due to the length of time she was gone, Gran had a heart attack and she had to go back. I think the could leave for a day at max but if they don't return, something had will happen.

[themirrorofsin.livejournal.com]

it was SO brilliant, he was like:
"wait, hold on, you don't want to marry me? wtf?!"

Yeah like if it's not forever... but I wonder where he was going... *ponders*

[akinarei.livejournal.com]

No, Ruby didn't move to Boston. She said she should have.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

Please do not tell me I'm wrong when I know what I heard in the commentary from the creators. They said she DID move but couldn't stay in Boston she had to leave to come back to Granny. As soon as you leave something bad, you can get out but the length of time leads for bad things to happen to the loved ones left behind.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

I just checked it again and this is what one said:
Creator: We see Ruby who is Little Red how she talking about how she should have gone to Boston but the Grandma's heart attack BROUGHT her back.Its not so much of a force field, it's you leave town and something bad happens that causes you to come back.
Other one: Its circumstances conspire to keep you in Storybrooke and that's what happened to Ruby.

[akinarei.livejournal.com]

Key phrase: should have gone...

Should have being what she wanted. And as the granny replied, she was sorry that her heart attack caused Ruby to come back.

I never said it was a force field. All I commented was that Ruby didn't move to Boston, but that she believed she should have.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

So maybe she was on her way to Boston and got a call from the hospital? Since she wasn't just going for an afternoon, I have trouble believing (from what we've been shown) that the curse would let her get far. Both Ashley and Kathryn only made it as far as the town sign.

[grlnamedlucifer.livejournal.com]

I loved his reaction as well. "What? You mean my assumption that you'd totally be on board with our arranged marriage, despite your painfully obvious lack of interest was wrong?" I wonder what would have happened if they'd actually tried talking together first. I imagine between them they could've figured out a better plan than "run away, even though the king promised to kill my mom if I did."

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

Yeah but from the timeline it seems they didn't have that much time. They had a month and I'm sure they were seperated for most of that time since Abigail wasn't staying with James (or she wouldn't have had to make journies to come see him)

Though the timeline is already so wonky and depends on who the writer is depends on whats going on...

[themirrorofsin.livejournal.com]

very much so ^^

[akinarei.livejournal.com]

I don't see David as weak. That episode left me feeling that Mary Margaret was way too high and lofty for anyone to reach.

Sirens, Lady of the Lake, Mermaids, whatever you decide to call them... usually don't let you run. I have no doubts that had Prince Charming tried to fill the bottle and then run, some sort of flora would have dragged him back or imprisoned him, whichever. Either way, if there's a guardian in that lake, no matter what happens, an inquirer will face that creature. That's how it works in fairy tales.

I don't know why Frederick went after Kathryn. I was wondering that myself and came to the conclusion that the curse is unraveling and fast. People are starting to remember, even unconsciously.

Why Boston? Because New Hampshire's biggest city is Keene the north midwest of the small state, if I remember correctly. Easier to just jump on to I-95 and take that down to Boston.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Sirens, Lady of the Lake, Mermaids, whatever you decide to call them... usually don't let you run.

This is probably true! There was no point in trying to get away so he might as well face her.

I was wondering that myself and came to the conclusion that the curse is unraveling and fast.

I like that idea and I hope we see more evidence soon.

I get why Boston would be chosen by the curse as the promised land since it is the largest nearby city but it is still odd that no one ever mentions NYC (not all that far from Boston!) or wanting to get AWAY from Maine and go to LA or any other city anywhere.

[akinarei.livejournal.com]

I think what surprised me the most was Lady of the Lake being used.

That's an Authurian legend-- how he got Excalibur. I've always thought that all those creatures were deep sea creatures, but hell, there's too many stories. I think I'd have called her an Each Uisage, except she wasn't a horse. ~_~

...but it is still odd that no one ever mentions NYC (not all that far from Boston!)

New York is much further than you think. Maine to New York is an eight hour trip. If bad things happen when you leave, then New York has to be out of the question.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I do live right outside of Boston and I've been to NYC so, yeah, it's far for a day trip from Maine but if you are planning on moving away, it's not that much farther - at least to consider.

[akinarei.livejournal.com]

If Once Upon A Time were in Mass then New York would be the mecca, wouldn't it? I lived in New Hampshire for a year and it had nothing.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Boston is really not that exciting here. You want the excitement of a big city, you go to NYC! But I suppose from anywhere else in New England, Boston is where it's at. Unless you prefer mountains of course. :D

[gl12.livejournal.com]

First off, where do I find this director's commentary that people are referencing? Need to know!

1. Adding pages for sure, but he did seem to leave a few out also. Maybe to make us doubt everything that Henry reads in the book from her on out? Great twist, though. Definitely has me intrigued.

4. I assumed that David is a schmo because of the curse. Seriously, his breakup line sounded like the most pansy-ass sniveling. "You need a new start." Right, Dave! You're doing it for me!! And he HAS to be suffering under a curse to mix up the Valentines---or frankly for buying such a cornball card in the first place. Mr. Gold's rope and duct-tape were more romantic than "I woof you." (Okay, all you Rum/Belle shippers---step away from the rope and duct tape!) I am going with the premise that in the cursed world, nobody is as pure of heart as they are in the enchanted world. Emotions and relationships are muddy and messy in the cursed world, and there is no true-love's kiss to solve all your problems. I guess we'll see if our characters end up deciding that the cursed world is more real and therefore preferable.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

Target released the first five episodes on DVD. The first episode has commentary.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Excellent icon! :)

1. I suppose it depends on what Booth's motives are on whether we need to doubt. Is he causing trouble or trying to secretly give Henry more info is the question!

2. I think it's the curse too (since Charming is not at all like that!) but it would nice to see him visibly trying to work against it even if he doesn't succeed because wishy-washy David is starting to get on my nerves. I agree that the curse was responsible for him mixing up the Valentine's. There was no way it was going to help him out in being happier.

And I don't think one has to be a Rum/Belle shipper to be interested in other uses Gold might have put the rope and duct tape. *cough*

[grlnamedlucifer.livejournal.com]

1. I thought he was adding pages on the first viewing. But after he told Emma the story about the water bringing things back I just assumed that that's what he was doing: taking apart the book to put the pages in the water to "bring back" the happy endings of the stories, then drying them, then stitching them back in. Surely Henry has read the entire book already, right?

4. I cannot even with David. Blaming every action he makes on the curse is a total cop-out, and yet one the writers seem to be going with. I did not read to me at all that he was trying to force the words out, it read to me as "how can I get out of this without everyone blaming me." Maybe the writers are trying to show that with the curse he's less confrontational? But until they show another character who's personality has gone the complete 180 like David's has, I can't really buy it as anything other than him just being a jerk.

6. I thought it was odd he wouldn't just fill it and run too, but I think we're supposed to assume the siren would have come out anyways. Otherwise I think someone else surely would have succeeded before that.

8. I'm 100% okay with Mary getting blamed (especially after her "we never lied" excuse because, seriously?), but I do agree David should have gotten an equal share of that blame. Regina definitely had a hand in it, without a doubt. But the writers also made a choice there not to show him getting any grief. Unless we see him getting the cold shoulder as well (from someone other than MM), it's way too close to just plain slut-shaming.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. Oh! Bringing back the happy endings! Now that's an idea!

4. But he SO DIFFERENT as Charming that it is hard for me to see David as anything other than cursed to be weak and ineffectual. It doesn't mean I like it though. Just because a plot point make logical sense it doesn't mean it is emotionally satisfying. I really hope they move on from this soon.

6. Yeah, I'm sure someone thought to fill and run before. I doubt they were all as suicidally brave as Charming was.

8. it's way too close to just plain slut-shaming

Yes.

[katje0711.livejournal.com]

1. I hadn't thought of the magic water idea. I like that. I still think he was adding pages and info, too.

3. The Wizard of Oz? That's an interesting theory.

6. I was also wondering why Charming didn't just fill the bottle and run. But you may have a point. He still might've been stopped.

8. I could totally see Regina behind the gossip about MM.

9. We already know Kathryn has minions, since the genie (forget his SB name) is helping her. Although, I wonder if he's really going to end up double crossing her. *fingers crossed*

[chloris.livejournal.com]

3. I saw a spoiler with the name weeks ago and, I don't know why, but since then I keep thinking Wizard of Oz. It's a serious long shot but until we find for sure it is going to stay in the back of my head. About the only person I don't want it to be is grown-up Henry. Just no. They are playing up the UST too much for me to go there.

9. We've seen a few minions - Sidney and (poor, dead) Graham but there must be more. That wall of hearts had A LOT of boxes.

[katje0711.livejournal.com]

I never thought of grown up Henry. What's UST?

So true!

[chloris.livejournal.com]

It's one of the theories that is going around! And UST is unresolved sexual tension. NOT something I want to see between mother and son. *bleh* Booth is seriously too flirty with Emma for me to think Henry.

[katje0711.livejournal.com]

Exactly! I wouldn't think it's Henry. I thought there was a theory it might be Gold's son, though.

[tamlover.livejournal.com]

1. What was August doing with the book??? Making a copy? Adding new pages? Aging the old pages? Aging new pages? Soaking them in magic water? Something else?

My first thought is that he was making a fake book, with some material changed, in order to deceive the reader. But I did like the idea I saw posted on TWOP of him magically transmitting the book to another realm using water. It ties in nicely with his spiel at the well.


4. As for David, is he weak or is he actually strong for managing to resist the curse enough to end his marriage even if he wasn't completely honest with Kathryn? Or maybe you don't care anymore and want this plot to move on? Personally I think while he seems weak, it did take a great force of will for him to get the words out (he could barely focus and remember what he was saying) AND I'm rather over it and want Charming back.

Weak, but a weakness caused by the curse. And I'm so over it and want Charming (or a more Charming-like David) back, too. I actually saw Charming in a better light. Rather than being surprised she wasn't interested, he seem paranoid, wary of the idea that someone who didn't care for him would help him, no strings attached. Quite funny, because he then turned around and offered to help Abigail, who he has no great feelings for.


5. I did think it was an excellent plan to have lots of Charming in this episode so we could be reminded that he is really a decisive and brave man when he is not cursed. Anyone else amused when he was completely dumbfounded at Abigail's lack of interest in him?

The contrast is spectacular. I love Charming, and am rather bored by David. I like Snow much better than Mary Margaret, but the dichotomy is nearly so frustrating. And we know it's his curse memories - he was also fantastic before his false memory returned. But David's not an enjoyable character to me.


8. Mary certainly got most of the blame here didn't she? We didn't see anyone tsking at David. Writer bias or should we be seeing the hand of Regina behind this?

Regina, definitely at least in part. She wants Kathryn to want David back, to fight for him. If he's painted as not worth having, then Kathryn wouldn't want him - Regina would defeat her own purpose. Actually, she did anyway, but that's separate (and delightful) matter.


11. To end: What happened to Kathryn? Wandering lost in the woods? Taken by Regina's minions to a secret hiding hole?

Not lost in the woods - too innocuous. And not enough long-term effect. Taken by someone, definitely. If they wanted to kill her, there'd be no reason to take the body or to delay in killing her. Kill her now, and if it's Regina, plant the evidence at Mary Margaret's place. Not positive it was Regina behind it, though that's most likely, I think. I definitely, definitely want Gym Teacher to be the one to find her the way Mary Margaret found David.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. I do like the idea of there being more magic in Storybrooke than it seems on the surface. It shouldn't be easy to get to but I want it to be there. (And new magic not just hold-overs like the hearts.)

4. Heh. I think he was both surprised and wary though I concede that it may not have been over any great ego on his part but rather a patriarchal mindset of not really considering what she would want. (Since it seems women were expected to marry who they were told in fairytale land.)

5. Please writers, give us a break through for David!

11. Perhaps lost and wandering and then taken? Oh yes, Gym Teacher should find her! He is her true love. We need to see them connect in Storybrooke.

[idle-curiosity.livejournal.com]

1) The Book ... I saw it as The Stranger simply repairing it. The only reason I think this is because last summer I left my favorite cooking magazine (soft bound, about 50 pages) out on the picnic table and it rained overnight. By the time I found it, in the middle of the next afternoon, the sun had dried it and it was ruined. The pages were fused together like they'd been glued. I had to buy a new one. If The Stranger found The Book after the rainstorm, and it had been soaked because it was buried in a box, he would have to soak the pages and hang them to dry, and sew it back together so that it wasn't ruined.

3) August W. Booth. Okay, now we have a name to call him, instead of The Stranger. Still of the notion that it's Graham, lol. He's way too into Emma to be some random guy like a Grimm Brother, or the Wiz, or someone who has never met her before, but is immediately so intense about her. Oh, and what's with the red (sorta) bandana he wears around his neck all the time? Reminds me of that red piece of material that was on the underside of the collar of the jacket Graham always wore. And Graham's jacket is still hanging in the Sheriff's office, exactly where Mr. Gold hung it. A shrine, or waiting for Graham to return, lol?

4) David's wishy-washyness is getting a little tiring. The one moment where I actually felt that David was telling the complete truth was that moment where he told Kathryn that he felt something was stopping him in his attempts to connect with her. He doesn't love her, he didn't marry her. After all, if the entire FTL translated to Storybrooke when The Curse started, he had to have been in a coma from the very beginning, with no chance of marrying Kathryn. I felt it was honest. I also found myself a bit irritated with Mary Margaret, and her insistence on complete truthfulness. If she felt that strongly about it, she should have gone with him, lol. His taking all responsibility for the ending of his marriage, and admitting to the affair, lets her off the hook without having to actually feel a whole lot of discomfort. Guilt, yes, but the messiness of the confrontation, no. I probably would feel a little differently if MM didn't come off as being somehow so lofty and principled by insisting on completely truthfulness after carrying on an affair with a (supposedly) married man.

7) True Love's Kiss - check your medicine cabinet. If out, call your pharmacist, or run to the nearest Walgreen's, lol.

8) Mary Margaret getting all the blame from the town sorta plays into all the cliches. Men will stray, yes (sigh), but the other woman will always been seen as the home wrecker, because they're invading someone else's playground, so to speak. Of course, Regina reserves a special hatred for Snow, so it stands to reason that she'd spread the gossip in a way that harms Mary Margaret most. A can of Krylon in her drawer? Really?

The Wishing Well. Still plays into my idea that The Stranger (AWB) is Graham. The legend is that the person who drinks from it will get something back that they lost. Emma drank from it, but actually Emma isn't the one who lost The Book. The only thing that Emma lost, if you think about it, was Graham. She had just opened herself up to him, and he was taken from her. Henry was the one who lost The Book. Technicality, I know, lol.

[tamlover.livejournal.com]

1) The Book ... I saw it as The Stranger simply repairing it.

The problem with that to me is then why set it up for Emma to find the book, especially after giving her the spiel about the water leading back what's lost? Why not just tell Henry you found his book and then give it back? IMO, it's too secretive for "he's a nice guy so he fixed the book."

[chloris.livejournal.com]

1. I agree with tamlover, it's more than a repair though repairing and restoring it may have been part of what he was doing. It just too Mysterious of him for it to be so simple.

3. We don't have any proof he is not so you can hold onto your hope a little longer! I do think he knows (and knew before he arrived) who Emma is and what she is going to do which would explain his interest in her.

4. I don't really know what would have been the best way to end the marriage with Kathryn. Since she was leaving town anyway (or so she though), why does she need to know about the affair? I can see that as more painful to know your husband was cheating rather than he found love again after you left. However, David didn't make the decision not to tell from a position of strength but from a position of weakness and lying which is what makes so frustrating.

And Mary. *sigh* She may have a stronger idea of the right thing to do but she still has a lot of trouble getting there. I suppose I have more sympathy for her because we've seen more of her on the show.