Skin Deep Questions

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I have some questions here to ponder for Skin Deep.

1. I'll start with the first question I was wondering about as I watched the episode. Why didn't Gold use his please to get the cup back? He used it to make Regina sit in the same scene so it is not as though he forgot he could do it. As with all magic there is likely price for each please he uses so maybe the price was too high? Or maybe it wasn't worth it since using it would basically out him anyway?

2. Is there any truth to the Queen's tale? Obviously Belle is alive so that part is false but we don't know for certain how much of the rest was true. Personally I vote for completely false and the Queen grabbed Belle as she left Rumpel's castle but then I tend to figure that the Queen is lying all the time.

3. Knowing about Belle and the price for the Curse I'm now wondering if he made the Curse after Belle. Because then it seems like payback.

4. Turning Gaston into a rose: creepy? funny? plain evil? romantic? Some combo of all of them?

5. When Regina was asking Gold for his true name who thinks she didn't know he's Rumpel? It seemed clear to me that what she wanted to know was if he remembered who he is (and get him to admit it) not that she was wondering who he is. Regina remembers everything and knows who everyone was and now we know for certain Gold does too.

6. Connectedly, did anyone else get a chill when he said his name? I was certain he knew even back when I watched the pilot but hearing him say it out loud was still intense. And that smile. Also, I noticed that Regina asked for his name three times before he said it. Nice fairytale callback!

7. The question now is how long Gold has known he is Rumpel? I vote for right from the start since we know he brought Henry to Storybrooke and that was not an accident. But he may not have been fully aware until Emma arrived. After all, 28 years of nothing changing is rather dull. Unless he used the time to make outside deals?

8. True love's kiss. Why didn't it work? It started to but then Rumpel pulled himself together and stopped it with his power firmly in place. It seems to me that it didn't work because he rejected it and not because it wasn't true love. I see him as someone who truly believes he is not worthy of love and no one can love him so this must be a plot or Belle playing the hero saving him. Also, losing his power while the Queen is around seems a VERY dangerous proposition.

9. And the mirrors. Belle thinks he covers them because he doesn't want to look at himself but the level of paranoia he shows after the kiss makes me think he covers them so that the Queen will have a harder time spying on him. And he certainly got a good rant on to the mirror when he uncovered it.

Comments

[sparkythegeek.livejournal.com]

I thought it was hilarious when Gaston was turned into a rose, given all the importance the rose had in the Disney animated film. Nice ironic touch, I thought.

I do think Regina knew all along who Mr. Gold was and just needed to hear him say it. (After forcing her to sit. Again, funny!)

I look forward to seeing where this goes with them both making direct references to Fairy Tale Land now. But really? Wouldn't the jail have a camera/recording device? Or is that one of those things the police can't do? It would be sure a handy way to validate Henry's fairy tale book, them admitting it right there!

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I know it was wrong but it made me giggle when he was transformed just as he started his big speech. And it was a good callback to the movie - with a twist.

I keep reading people theorizing that she asked him his name because she didn't know his fairytale persona and I don't get it! Of course she knew.

A normal jail would have a camera but who knows about this one! The rules don't quite apply here.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

I don't think the kiss worked because he stopped it, he has NO reason to want to change, he has no reason to need or want redemption. At this point the only people he's killed has been the Duke's men protecting his child (his given right as a parent) and inadvertently Geppetto's parents, but that was by Jiminy's hand, not his own.

The mirrors are obviously to stop Regina. She uses her mirrors to spy. Belle's such an effin moron to assume he's covering them because he doesn't want to see himself because he's always been extremely proud of himself, even as Rumpelstiltskin.

This episode was so out of character for him, IMHO. I hated this episode with its shotty writing and pissy poor romance. There wasn't enough time to even development and they cut scenes they shouldn't have.

Poor fucking Gaston. Seriously, I never thought I would love him but he has taken on the role of "Good Adam" to me.

And Regina has known all along who Gold was, she just wanted to know HE remembered who he was. Most of us have known it since episode one that he has always known about the curse, he probably made a loophole when he created it

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I think it's a great deal more complicated then him not wanting to change. He revealed a fair amount of self-loathing after the kiss. And I don't think we can say he hasn't killed anyone other than the ones you mention. He has had decades or centuries and we know very little of what he has done.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

Given the blurred timeline we know this is after Jiminy's take (given Mom and Pop Geppetto are in the dining room) but can't be as far as Snow hiding in the woods because they do not mention the war.

But though it could be loathing because he realizes its all brought on by Regina.

I don't know this episode was extremely awful and the writing was awful which is sad because Jane wrote my favorite episode (Small Voice)

[rei2rei.livejournal.com]

This is probably a stupid question, but how do you know they cut scenes they shouldn't have?

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Not stupid you just haven't been looking at promo pics and reading comments by the writer. *g* I don't know if they cut things they shouldn't have (since I quite liked the episode) but the episode did run long and several scenes had to be trimmed or removed. There is a chance we will see them on the DVD release though!

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

Easy, when they released promo stills there was an Arche/David moment of them in the bar watching the girls. Raphael (Archie) confirmed he would be in the episode and he wasnt. It sucked for him because it was his birthday when they episode aired!

Just like with "Lonely Hunter" we had stills of Ruby looking devoius in the diner and Sidney stalking Graham and we didn't get that either!

[autumn-pumpkin.livejournal.com]

I was actually wondering why he didn't use his "please" thing to get the cup back earlier today myself. My best guess was that he was just so enraged, and that his love for Belle has such power over him, that he temporarily forgot in the heat of the moment, but I'm sure there's more to it than that. (Or at least I hope so; I don't like to think that Regina can hold Belle over his head like that and make him give in so easily.)
I've also been wondering if the Queen was lying about Belle, too. It doesn't make sense that her father would cut her off simply because she'd been with Rumpel all that time. Any father would just be happy to have his daughter back, you'd think.
I believe Gold's always known he was Rumpel and Regina's always suspected as much, she just needed him to confirm it.
That's an interesting thought about the mirrors, and I definitely think you're right. It's so easy for the Queen to spy on everyone through her mirrors, it'd make sense he'd want his covered, and also explain why he was pretty much screaming at it as if it were a physical person.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I doubt that Belle will make him give in easily! In my opinion Regina trying to use her is more likely to enrage him then make him capitulate. However, it seems as though using the please for the cup would tell her what she wanted to know anyway. He picks his battles carefully.

There are too many shiny surfaces for him to be completely secure but why make it easy for her to see everything? I wonder if the Queen is the first person to be able to match him in power? Has he defeated others before?

[earthspirits.livejournal.com]

All good points.

The cup...I agree, "please" probably costs Gold every time he utters it, and perhaps he knew that one way or the other this time he needed to come out of "hiding". Perhaps his anger at the Queen also made him want to "bring it on". He was incredibly intense when he uttered his true name, and his smile was cutting. (Yes, I got a little chill/thrill at that scene too).

I personally loved the scene where Rumple turned Gaston into a rose. Poor Gaston, didn't even get to finish uttering his threat! Classic bit of Rumple. : D
Side note: Wonder if Gaston is now returned to being human in Storybrooke? That could be an interesting development.

Regarding Regina ~ She always knew that Gold was Rumple, she just wanted to know if HE remembered.

As you say, the kiss didn't work because R. pulled himself back. He doesn't love himself, so finds it impossible to believe that someone else could really love him. Although when asked by the EQ, Belle said something along the lines of she "thought" she loved him. Perhaps her inner doubt also invalidated the kiss.

I also agree with you, that the mirrors were covered to stop the Queen from spying on him.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

Oh, he was SO angry! I wouldn't be surprised if it made him a bit reckless and ready to make himself clear.

I completely adore that scene and have watched a few times now. I still get a chill each time he says Rumpelstiltskin. It's just such beautiful and layered acting. (Heh. I'm trying to be more analytical and less fangirly here and it's tough! I adored every scene Carlyle was in.)

I suppose whether Gaston is in Storybrooke depends on whether he was a magic rose that didn't wilt or not. If he wilted he is (unfortunately for him) long gone.

[earthspirits.livejournal.com]

I happily join you in fan-girling over the delicious Mr. Carlyle. He's a delight to see in any scene he does.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Then you will like the post I'm about to put up. I'm just finishing a Mr. Gold picspam from the episode (Rumpel to come later) which has...hmmm...a decent amount of fangirling. *cough*

[thetaet.livejournal.com]

Here's a weird, and kind of silly question: If Gaston did have a human counterpart in Storybrooke, would the fact that Belle cut the end of the rose stem off have a bearing on his human form?

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

I think I'm in the minority, but I didn't like the turning Gaston into a rose part. In this version of the story, he'd done nothing at all to justify that.

I think Rumpel has known all along. I'm sure he had plenty of ways to amuse himself and keep from getting bored!

[chloris.livejournal.com]

I do feel guilty about liking it since he could have just sent Gaston back home after all.

Now I want to know what he did to keep himself busy all those year surrounds as he was by people in a fog and not being able to change anything. (At least in Storybrooke. We know he has outside contacts of some sort.)

[sentbyfools.livejournal.com]

I thought that was curious as well that he didn't use the power of his please. Maybe it was because he was ready for the Queen to know for certain that he's known his identity all along and to prove to her that she has no advantage over him because she knows who she is. They're not on the same playing field, and it's come to the point where she needs to know that as well. Although, Regina's definitely not going to let it go at that.

As for Belle, I'm excited to see where they go with this storyline. It's curious that Mr. Gold hasn't used his power to find out her whereabouts though. Maybe he doesn't actually suspect Regina of holding her, or maybe he feels that he has no right to save her because he isn't worthy of her. He's no Knight in Shining Armor, nor does he see himself as one, though he could possibly be waiting for Emma to do it. She is the one that's supposed to save them all.

[nickless.livejournal.com]

I think he believes Regina's story that Belle is dead. And I'm with you - I'm fascinated by the potential Mr. Gold/whateverhernameishere storyline. I can't wait to see what happens when he finds out the truth. I'm hoping for an awesome rescue ep. :)

[chloris.livejournal.com]

He did have the power of being able to pretend that he wasn't himself and not a threat to her but he can only make knowing comments just so often before there is no pretending anymore. And maybe he was ready to get the fight going for real.

Since he thinks she is dead there is no reason for him to look for her. All he has left of her is the cup and that's all he ever expects to have. I can't wait for him to find out she is alive! That's going to be big.

[elizabethtess.livejournal.com]

It's a common fairy tale trope (most notably in Rumpel's original story!) that knowing a person's name gives you power over them. I was under the impression that Rumpelstiltskin telling Regina his name gave her power over him. Or at least, she THINKS it gives her power over him. :D

In regards to true love's kiss not working -- I'm thinking it DID work a little bit. Then Rumpel thought Belle was betraying him and his heart broke, and for that vital moment he fell out of love with her. Curse reset. :(

[chloris.livejournal.com]

They seem to be subverting that though. After all we have Rumpel going around telling everyone who he is. I see this more as him giving up the power of pretending he doesn't know. However, considering the little comments he has been throwing around this day was going to come soon even if she didn't force the issue.

Awww. I wasn't thinking about his heart breaking but it so did!

[lady-wintermute.livejournal.com]

Here is my theory on why he didn't use please:
Looking over the scene in the jail again, I realized that Gold is the one who proposed making a deal. "When two people have something the other wants, a deal can always be struck," etc. He wasn't backed into a corner--he OFFERED a deal. And Rumpelstiltskin doesn't offer a deal unless he knows exactly what he's doing.

The rose thing with Gaston was funny...until Belle cut him in half...

And, yeah, complete chill when he said his name. It was the smile that really made it for me.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Good point! He offers the deal! And, yes, he always makes sure it benefits him. That is something think about...

Yeah, poor Gaston. I winced when the scissors came out.

[verseblack.livejournal.com]

1. I've been wondering over this myself, and feel a bit bad for doing so as it gave us that *wonderful* admission. I've been toying with the idea that as a dealmaker, 'Pel is willing to pay for the things that he wants and that he might feel that buying back the cup with nothing but a "please" might be to cheapen it somehow. That cup was worth the admission, worth his name to him. I've also seen someone else say that he was afraid that Regina might be able to let her hand "slip" while handing it over if he tried to get smart about it. I liked the 3 requests as well.

4. I laughed and felt bad for laughing. It is such a horrid, horrid thing to do, but the contrast of "big heroic speech and sword" to "hand wave, *poof*" just cracked me up.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

he was afraid that Regina might be able to let her hand "slip" while handing it over if he tried to get smart about it

I think that's a good point. She may be forced to give it him but that doesn't mean she couldn't have an oops. And then where would he be? She'd still know he was Rumpel even if he managed not to say it aloud but his cup would be gone.

[oldandnewfirm.livejournal.com]

No matter what Gold did or said in the jail scene, Regina would have come away the victor. If Gold had used "please," then she would have known that he knew its power, and hence remembered the deal they'd struck in fairy tale world. If he gave her his name (as he did), same effect. And if he'd tried to pretend the cup was meaningless to him to keep her off his scent, she'd have known he was lying, because there would have been no reason for him to go ape shit on Moe French otherwise. As Emma said, Gold's reaction was too violent to be over a few mere trinkets. No matter what, she'd have come away knowing that he remembered life before Storybrooke.

Oh, and I do think the Queen knew who Gold was before Storybrooke, just as she knew who Graham was. She just wanted to hear it from Gold's own lips to confirm her suspicions about him knowing that.

I doubt that Belle ever made it back to her father. The Queen probably snatched her up shortly after Belle left Rumple's castle.

I agree that Rumple made the curse after the Belle incident. He takes such pleasure in telling her what she must do to enact the curse in "The Thing You Love Most" that I'm sure he did that to make her suffer as much as he did.

Belle mentions that he keeps all the mirrors covered, not just the one in that room, so I'm going to agree that he does so to keep the Queen from spying.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Yes. She had him cornered and he knew it. Why use a please and pay the cost when it won't help you?

I do think the Queen knew who Gold was before Storybrooke, just as she knew who Graham was

I was mostly wondering because I keep coming across people who believe she didn't know who he is or that she doesn't have full knowledge of fairytale land. That makes no sense to me. Of course she knows. And of course he knows. The fact that the voice over says only one knows just means they were keeping it secret.

As for the curse it does make a lot of sense for it to be after Belle. And that says to me that they planned on him being the Beast right from the beginning as they broke out the main story arcs.

[grlnamedlucifer.livejournal.com]

8. It's entirely possible I'm on my own here, but I think part of the problem is believing anything the Queen says is true, and part of it is that it's failure is both of their faults.

The Queen tells Belle, a girl who desperately wants to be the hero of her story and wants to believe she can rescue Rumpelstiltskin (or, even, that he wants to be rescued), that true love's kiss can break any curse. Something that gives Belle power and the chance to be the hero. And Belle, who was all set to run away and only "thought" she loved him, runs back immediately to do it. The Queen clearly knows what will take Rumpelstiltskin's power away - maybe what actually would break the curse was Rumpelstiltskin wanting something more than he wanted his power. Maybe when Belle kissed him, she was all he wanted, which is why it started to work. And then Belle had to mention that she was trying to break the curse (which would take that power away) and it all came crashing down.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe Rumpelstiltskin loves her, his reaction to her "death" says that in spades. But I also think he's not lying when he says he cares about his power more than her (at least at that point). And I believe Belle does love him, but she seems more invested in breaking the curse and being right about his feelings than figuring out her own. Even if "true love's kiss" is what breaks the curse, I don't think either of their priorities at this point are in the right place for that to work. I'm hoping that they'll get a second shot at it in the real world, when they have their priorities and feelings straightened out.

(This is also the same reasoning I have for people harping on "why didn't David and MM's kiss break the curse?" Because they - or David at least - have seriously warped priorities at the moment, and need to figure out their life first before you can call that "true love.")

9. I 100% believe he covers the mirrors (and the windows, because they can be reflective) solely because he doesn't want the Queen spying on him. Personally I think a lot of Rumpelstiltskin's "issues" in the episode are really Belle projecting what she thinks are his motives, and the idea that he hates looking at himself is definitely one of them.

[intrikate88.livejournal.com]

Even if "true love's kiss" is what breaks the curse, I don't think either of their priorities at this point are in the right place for that to work. I'm hoping that they'll get a second shot at it in the real world, when they have their priorities and feelings straightened out.

Totally agree. And part of the reason I found this episode so compelling and sticking with me is that it ISN'T the whole BATB story. It is barely the first third of the story. We assume, based on our knowledge of the fairy tale, that the Beast is already in a place of wanting to break his curse. But even in the Disney version, when Belle ventures into the west wing and sees his weakness instead of his power, he scares her into leaving. My reading of the story in general is that both Belle and the Beast have power- the Beast, a very masculine power of domination/intimidation, and Belle, a very feminized power of withholding what can break the curse. Over the course of the whole story, they both must release their respective power if they are to have love. But in "Skin Deep", Rumples is still holding onto his power, and Belle is aware of her power to break the curse, and is using it for her own purposes, not for his. So, story-wise, they might feel affection for each other and even emotional need, but they have not gotten through even half of their story. In terms of pacing compared to the Disney version, we're pretty much at the point where Belle runs off and gets attacked by wolves in the woods.

(And in terms of older versions, like the Cocteau movie or the Madame le Prince de Beaumont fairytale, some of these dynamics don't really come into play, although they both do focus a lot on the economic value of a woman as well as negotiating sexual power politics.)

[grlnamedlucifer.livejournal.com]

>In terms of pacing compared to the Disney version, we're pretty much at the point where Belle runs off and gets attacked by wolves in the woods.<

This. Such a perfect way to put it. They've just had a much bigger stumbling block put in the way, and I very much anticipate the moment he proves himself to her and comes to rescue her from the wolves.

Not to mention when Belle comes to his actual rescue as well. The producers seem very big on the "no damsels in distress" message, so it's impossible for me to believe this is where Belle's growth ends. She's told him off, forced him to face his behavior, gave them the chance to actually fall in love on somewhat more equal footing. I've no doubt in my mind that she'll get the chance to be a real hero, to rescue someone she's sure actually wants to be rescued. And I'm hoping her and Rumpelstiltskin's happy ending comes with it.

[intrikate88.livejournal.com]

In the Disney movie, I really love the wolves scene and the one after it- because first they rescue each other when they really don't have to, and then they feel free enough to yell at each other. It's a giant turning point in their relationship because it moves it from an unequal jailor/prisoner situation to a more equal playing field, and it's because of choices they both consciously made. I think that something similar would be very fitting on the show, with both another chapter for them in FTL and Storybrooke, where they get to have the same moment. I agree, I think Belle will get to be a real hero, and when she does it will be for a greater reason than her own longings for a life to call her own.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Excellent analysis! I love that it's not so simple and each of them have complex motivations in this. And we can't forget his fear - fear of the Queen being more powerful than him, fear that no one could love the monster he has become, and fear that no one could love the man he was.

I agree that this is somewhere in the middle of their story and they have a ways to go before it get to the end. (And I do hope she gets a chance to save him! And he her.) Happy endings don't come until...well, the end.

This is what I love about writing up questions for the comm. So many interesting thoughts from everyone that make me reconsider aspects of the episode and look a little deeper.

[intrikate88.livejournal.com]

5. When Regina was asking Gold for his true name who thinks she didn't know he's Rumpel? It seemed clear to me that what she wanted to know was if he remembered who he is (and get him to admit it) not that she was wondering who he is. Regina remembers everything and knows who everyone was and now we know for certain Gold does too.

I think she's been wanting to know for awhile exactly how much he knows. I also think that when she wanted to talk to him at the beginning of the episode, it was not the same conversation they had in the jail cell. Remember, the terms of their agreement was that if he said 'please' she had to do what he said, and when he wanted to avoid her conversation he very deliberately said please, leaving her to stand there with a thoughtful expression on her face. That, I think, is what set off the chain of events that landed him in jail, precisely the place where she wanted him to be stuck so she could confirm that he knows what's going on in a place where he can't get away.

It was entirely a power play, for Regina to make a point and confirm where all the the real players stand in Storybrooke.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Now I wonder what she might have wanted to talk about at the beginning. If it wasn't about his identity (as I've believed it to be), he rather brought this upon himself! Being a bit more polite could have allowed him to keep his knowledge secret for a bit longer. Regina is not a woman who takes no for answer, even from Rumpelstiltskin.

[intrikate88.livejournal.com]

Given that he had just made a very public display of HIS power in the town, I would imagine she may have wanted to talk about him toning it down a bit and remembering that she's in charge. She's a fairly reactionary character- she tries fairly hard to keep things running status quo on her 28-year-old spell, and she is direct and addresses problems when she sees them; she doesn't seem to go much for the long game, strange as that sounds. (For example, even when she and Sidney set Emma up to look like a dirt-digging fool, she had her plot done by the end of the episode.) If there is anything she holds back, it is for leverage at a time not too far in the future. So that's my theory on what their talk would be.

[joylee56.livejournal.com]

About turning Gaston into that rose, why is everyone missing the fact that the dude was invading Rumpel's home and threatening him at sword point? Clear self defense.

Of course, the 'threat' was about as dangerous as a kitten taking on a cougar. I suspect Rumpel waved him out of existence as much from annoyance and a desire to improve the gene pool as anything else. I think he might have been inclined to relent if Belle had indicated any affection for Gaston, but since she didn't care, he probably figured they were both well rid of the nuisance.

I'm a little disappointed that they've revealed Gold remembers the other world. I enjoyed the ambiguity.

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yes, of course, self defense. Who could blame him for defending himself. :D

While I have enjoyed the ambiguity myself, I'm rather glad they revealed it now rather than dragging it out. I think mysteries have a definite shelf life and if writers leave them hanging too long the reveal is almost inevitably a let down.

[wildsky-sheri.livejournal.com]

As to point number 9 regarding the mirrors, I have a very belated question: why would covering the mirrors do any good? Sure, it cuts off the visual perspective but that doesn't mean the Magic Mirror still can't hear what's going on.

I'm reminded of a quote from the most recent Die Hard movie.

"Detective, covering the camera with your hand does not turn off the microphone!"

Okay, so Queenie can't see what's going on but that doesn't mean she didn't hear every conversation Rumpelstiltskin and Belle ever had. And I get the impression Rumpel was wondering how the hell Regina knew about Belle. Sheesh!

[chloris.livejournal.com]

Good point! Why didn't Rumpel move all his mirrors to one room that he never went in? Of course, pre-Belle I doubt there was much in the way of conversation for the mirror to listen to.