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abc_onceuponWe've now all had time to think about last Sunday's episode. I've reviewed the episode at my journal and I have some question and discussion points!
1. Let's start with the end. Who was thinking it was Belle in the hold of the ship? Even though I was pretty certain Archie was not dead I still figured that it must be Belle. The poor girl needs to figure out how to get captured less often.
2. Instead it was Archie, who not only is tied up and about to be tortured but also getting insulted by Hook. Will Archie tell them all about Gold and his son? I think he will since they not only have physical torture but also magic to use on him.
3. Of course, if Hook had only shown up pretending to be a concerned friend, Archie probably would have told him everything he wanted to know. Okay, probably not unless he could impersonate someone Archie already trusted. However, it was not okay to disclose anything he knew about Regina! Even if he thought it would help her. How much did that bother you?
4. This is the third murder frame job they've had on the show and the second fake death, maybe it's time for a new plot? Just a thought. At least this one is different in the details and motivation though - for one thing this time we have a dead body.
5. Which makes me wonder if anyone is going to miss whoever she DID murder? And how about the dockworker? It seems he at least had a business and probably regular customers. I know Storybrooke is bigger on the inside but it would be nice if our heroes (who are the main law enforcement in town) noticed these other murders.
6. Would you eat Regina's lasagne knowing that she poisoned a fruit tart just a couple of weeks ago? I know we were supposed to feel sorry for her at the party (and I did) but it took a lot of trust to eat that.
7. And the sign! Is is a bad thing to be in trouble often enough that people can reuse your welcome back sign? I loved the 'and Emma' they tacked on the bottom.
8. Do you think it's a bad thing or a good thing that Emma used magic deliberately? Up until now she has only used magic accidentally but this time she tried and succeeded in using her magic. Since Gold intended to be long gone by now it's unlikely he had a plan for her magic (though it seems he knew she had some sort of magic already), but, since you don't spend 300 years manipulating people without being able to take full advantage of anything that comes your way, now I'm wonder what use he intends for her magic.
9. Why didn't they try to use the dream catcher on Regina? Belief that Regina would be able to use magic to alter the memories? Emma being too angry to think of it? Emma does seem to feel quite betrayed once she saw the murder. Up until then she was advocating strongly for Regina.
10. Will Regina now team up with Cora? Cora thinks she has done everything right to get her daughter back and needing her but Regina has someone she loves again. Henry may now believe Regina is guilty but, since he is still alive, there is still hope of fixing things.
11. How much does Hook want to get away from Cora? I don't think he feels bad about working with her or anything since she has clearly been useful to him but he seems quite aware of how dangerous she is and finds her rather distasteful. Not that he didn't like his present. :)
12. Now we know why Regina was willing to use the curse rather than continue trying to kill Snow in FTL. But why did Snow decide to make yet another deal with Rumpelstiltskin? They managed to make a magic free prison for Rumpel quickly enough when they wanted to - why not lock up Regina if they weren't willing to execute her? And considering many other people she killed/hurt as Evil Queen, why would they think protecting themselves only would be sufficient?
1. Let's start with the end. Who was thinking it was Belle in the hold of the ship? Even though I was pretty certain Archie was not dead I still figured that it must be Belle. The poor girl needs to figure out how to get captured less often.
2. Instead it was Archie, who not only is tied up and about to be tortured but also getting insulted by Hook. Will Archie tell them all about Gold and his son? I think he will since they not only have physical torture but also magic to use on him.
3. Of course, if Hook had only shown up pretending to be a concerned friend, Archie probably would have told him everything he wanted to know. Okay, probably not unless he could impersonate someone Archie already trusted. However, it was not okay to disclose anything he knew about Regina! Even if he thought it would help her. How much did that bother you?
4. This is the third murder frame job they've had on the show and the second fake death, maybe it's time for a new plot? Just a thought. At least this one is different in the details and motivation though - for one thing this time we have a dead body.
5. Which makes me wonder if anyone is going to miss whoever she DID murder? And how about the dockworker? It seems he at least had a business and probably regular customers. I know Storybrooke is bigger on the inside but it would be nice if our heroes (who are the main law enforcement in town) noticed these other murders.
6. Would you eat Regina's lasagne knowing that she poisoned a fruit tart just a couple of weeks ago? I know we were supposed to feel sorry for her at the party (and I did) but it took a lot of trust to eat that.
7. And the sign! Is is a bad thing to be in trouble often enough that people can reuse your welcome back sign? I loved the 'and Emma' they tacked on the bottom.
8. Do you think it's a bad thing or a good thing that Emma used magic deliberately? Up until now she has only used magic accidentally but this time she tried and succeeded in using her magic. Since Gold intended to be long gone by now it's unlikely he had a plan for her magic (though it seems he knew she had some sort of magic already), but, since you don't spend 300 years manipulating people without being able to take full advantage of anything that comes your way, now I'm wonder what use he intends for her magic.
9. Why didn't they try to use the dream catcher on Regina? Belief that Regina would be able to use magic to alter the memories? Emma being too angry to think of it? Emma does seem to feel quite betrayed once she saw the murder. Up until then she was advocating strongly for Regina.
10. Will Regina now team up with Cora? Cora thinks she has done everything right to get her daughter back and needing her but Regina has someone she loves again. Henry may now believe Regina is guilty but, since he is still alive, there is still hope of fixing things.
11. How much does Hook want to get away from Cora? I don't think he feels bad about working with her or anything since she has clearly been useful to him but he seems quite aware of how dangerous she is and finds her rather distasteful. Not that he didn't like his present. :)
12. Now we know why Regina was willing to use the curse rather than continue trying to kill Snow in FTL. But why did Snow decide to make yet another deal with Rumpelstiltskin? They managed to make a magic free prison for Rumpel quickly enough when they wanted to - why not lock up Regina if they weren't willing to execute her? And considering many other people she killed/hurt as Evil Queen, why would they think protecting themselves only would be sufficient?
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no subject
Date: 2013-01-10 09:07 pm (UTC)2. I think Archie is stronger than he seems. And Hook is an ass.
3. Yes, this really bothered me. His heart was in the right place, but he knows the rules of therapy from his curse-memories. You never disclose ANY information, not even whether or not you're seeing a particular patient. I think this was a misstep that was more Jiminy than Archie.
4. [shrug] Could be worse. Besides, like mother like daughter.
5. I wondered this, too. Eventually there SHOULD be two missing persons reports coming into the Sheriff's station...
6. Yep. I would have trusted Emma's judgment in that moment. In a room full of people, the first person to get sick or die from the lasagna would make it PRETTY OBVIOUS who did it.
7. I giggled.
8. I think it's good. It should help in the inevitable face off with Cora. I think that Rumple will use her, sure, but I don't think it's with malicious intent. She's like the "good witch," lol. She's everything Regina could have been without his interference. There may be some guilt there.
9. Yeah, probably because Regina could have affected the outcome. Pongo had no say in the matter, lol.
10. No. Ultimately, what I think will happen is that Regina will FINALLY admit that her mom sucks and that her love for Henry outweighs the love for her mom. She will fear what Cora could do to Henry...not just physically, but emotional manipulation like what she's done to Regina. Cora is a huge threat to Henry, even more so since Cora knows his relation to Emma. She could hurt him, use him, manipulate him, etc. So I think that Regina will stand with Emma and the Charmings and everyone else against Cora. I tend to think that maybe Rumple will too, because Belle will want to stand on the side of good as well.
11. I think he doesn't like being told what to do, despite being used by both Cora and Regina. He can tell when something is to his advantage, but he's probably growing tired of it.
12. Let's think about how useful their little prison would have been if Rumple hadn't wanted to be there. I don't know that locking her up permanently would have been the solution because she is quite powerful. Frankly, if they had listened to Charming and just executed her, it would have saved everyone a lot of trouble. That said, banishing her was idiotic. She has an entire castle full of soldiers and prisoners, and they didn't think to maybe DO SOMETHING about that? She can still hurt people in other kingdoms...Snow and Charming can't police every single kingdom. Maybe the soldiers choose to be there and serve her...fine. But Charming KNOWS FOR A FACT that she has at least one prisoner there who is contained against his will. And yet they go and have their wedding instead of freeing possible POWs. Or maybe they do and we just didn't see it, and I'm pissed off about nothing. I don't know. Either way...banishing her was stupid.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-10 11:18 pm (UTC)2. Instead it was Archie, who not only is tied up and about to be tortured but also getting insulted by Hook. Will Archie tell them all about Gold and his son? Don't think he'd volunteer it (sucky patient privilege of not) but Cora can probably compel him regardless.
3. Of course, if Hook had only shown up pretending to be a concerned friend, Archie probably would have told him everything he wanted to know. Okay, probably not unless he could impersonate someone Archie already trusted. However, it was not okay to disclose anything he knew about Regina! Even if he thought it would help her. How much did that bother you?
A lot.
4. This is the third murder frame job they've had on the show and the second fake death, maybe it's time for a new plot?
Yes. I really enjoy OUAT and its premise, but a lot of the writing could be better. A lot.
5. Which makes me wonder if anyone is going to miss whoever she DID murder? And how about the dockworker?
No idea. It could go either way.
6. Would you eat Regina's lasagne knowing that she poisoned a fruit tart just a couple of weeks ago? I know we were supposed to feel sorry for her at the party (and I did) but it took a lot of trust to eat that.
Ditto.
7. And the sign! Is is a bad thing to be in trouble often enough that people can reuse your welcome back sign? I loved the 'and Emma' they tacked on the bottom.
Heh.
8. Do you think it's a bad thing or a good thing that Emma used magic deliberately?
I think it's good to wonder... and I think it's good to keep it so that magic has consequences, so while I don't think it was particularly destructive, I do like the concept of using magical short-cuts can't be an easy fix-all because it exacts a toll.
9. Why didn't they try to use the dream catcher on Regina? Belief that Regina would be able to use magic to alter the memories? Emma being too angry to think of it? Emma does seem to feel quite betrayed once she saw the murder. Up until then she was advocating strongly for Regina.
10. Will Regina now team up with Cora?
I think that this is going to (eventually) become a temptation. I think that Cora as Regina's nemesis should take a while because Cora is at the root of Regina's need to acrue power and control, and it will take Regina facing down that before she can make any headway towards real change, so it should contain conflict and shouldn't be easily overcome.
11. How much does Hook want to get away from Cora?
I don't think he embraces Cora (I noticed that after Cora turned the random dude into a fish and left it flopping, he made sure to toe it into the ocean). But I think that Hook is willing to make fatal compromises for his goals, which is why even if he occasionally winces at something Cora does, he's not a 'good guy' in this. He's willing to bypass any objection so as to achieve his goals.
12. Now we know why Regina was willing to use the curse rather than continue trying to kill Snow in FTL. But why did Snow decide to make yet another deal with Rumpelstiltskin? They managed to make a magic free prison for Rumpel quickly enough when they wanted to - why not lock up Regina if they weren't willing to execute her? And considering many other people she killed/hurt as Evil Queen, why would they think protecting themselves only would be sufficient?
No clue. I think Snow and Charming are occasionally kind of naive and dumb. But in a forgivable way because they usually mean well.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-11 03:09 am (UTC)4. Heh. True. I suppose we have to expect that their minds will work the same way.
6. If I were Regina I would choose something slow acting. *g* But I agree that they were quite safe from her that evening.
8. She's everything Regina could have been without his interference. There may be some guilt there.
Excellent point! I'm seeing the parallels with him teaching Regina and getting nervous but Emma is not Regina.
10. I don't think she is going to go off with Cora either! Cora doesn't understand the power of love and thinks it a weakness but it's a reason for Regina to stay strong.
11. I would be tired of it too, especially since Cora clearly thinks of him as her lackey.
12. We know Rumpel was there because he wanted to be but they didn't know that. Also, he planned his incarceration ahead of time so they might have had better luck with Regina. Of course, I'm sure Rumpel could have let her out if he needed to.
But Charming KNOWS FOR A FACT that she has at least one prisoner there who is contained against his will.
*sniff* The Huntsman. Why didn't they rescue what victims they could? And, if they had bothered, they would have found and been able to rescue Belle as well.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-11 04:47 am (UTC)2. I don't think he would willingly do something to harm someone. But...magic so who knows!
8. It will be interesting to see where they go with this. The only other magic wielders we know are Rumpel and his dark magic students and the fairies. Emma isn't in either category even if Rumpel is giving her some advice.
10. We have Cora on one side and Henry on the other and it definitely shouldn't easy for Regina to navigate this. I wonder how long it will take for Cora to decide to kill Henry.
11. He also looked rather disgusted with her. But, yes, this doesn't mean he is a good guy! He's perfectly willing to stand by as she murders everyone in sight.
12. I love Snow and Charming but they have big blind spots. Maybe it's a side effect of being fairytale characters.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-11 08:19 pm (UTC)Let's think about how useful their little prison would have been if Rumple hadn't wanted to be there. I don't know that locking her up permanently would have been the solution because she is quite powerful. Frankly, if they had listened to Charming and just executed her, it would have saved everyone a lot of trouble. That said, banishing her was idiotic. She has an entire castle full of soldiers and prisoners, and they didn't think to maybe DO SOMETHING about that? She can still hurt people in other kingdoms...Snow and Charming can't police every single kingdom. Maybe the soldiers choose to be there and serve her...fine. But Charming KNOWS FOR A FACT that she has at least one prisoner there who is contained against his will. And yet they go and have their wedding instead of freeing possible POWs. Or maybe they do and we just didn't see it, and I'm pissed off about nothing. I don't know. Either way...banishing her was stupid.
Why bother arguing over the matter, since we all know that Regina survived to cast the curse?
Would you eat Regina's lasagne knowing that she poisoned a fruit tart just a couple of weeks ago? I know we were supposed to feel sorry for her at the party (and I did) but it took a lot of trust to eat that.
I believe Regina took a bite first. And I also suspect that the manner in which she presented the lasagna to Grumpy was her way of challenging him. I rather enjoyed the scene.
I realize that many would believe it was right for the Charmings to believe that Regina was guilty of murder. But . . . their attitude struck me as a little . . . oh, I don't know. Smug? Self-righteous? Is this episode the first sign of a darker portrayal for the Charmings? I hope so. Flawed characters are more interesting to me than ideal ones.
no subject
Date: 2013-01-12 11:22 pm (UTC)I definitely see Charming as smug and very black and white in his thinking. Snow even in Storybrooke wanted Regina to be the good person she was before - and from Snow's perspective she has given Regina many chances before. Emma was also rather smug when she used magic but she has always been flawed as a character (in interesting ways in my opinion).
no subject
Date: 2013-04-26 04:46 am (UTC)we're in agreement about that. it may've been Emma's magic which viewed it, but the device and instructions were Rumplestiltskin's.
(its moot, mostly likely, given that Cora seems to have known that the murder would be observed - another reason to have made sure Pongo couldn't run away, I suppose)
>12
not sure why they didn't make a prison...the cost, maybe? ("a lot of dwarves died making this place" in Rumplestiltskin's prison)
>And considering many other people she killed/hurt as Evil Queen, why would they think protecting themselves only would be sufficient?
maybe they think "if she can't hurt us, she won't hurt our friends"? which is bass-ackwards - Snow knows Regina can use Snow's friends to find Snow.