Episode Discussion 1x19: The Return

[jadestrick.livejournal.com]

Episode Discussion 1x19: The Return

While Emma confronts Regina about Kathryn's disappearance, David tries to make amends to Mary Margaret and Mr. Gold tries to learn August's real identity. Meanwhile, in the fairytale world, Baelfire gets his transformed father to agree to return to his original self, untainted by magic.

Comments

[litlover12.livejournal.com]

I have a feeling this is going to be Robert Carlyle's Emmy submission episode.

"It was meant to be sweet" -- heh. That's pretty much David in a nutshell.

[madwitch58.livejournal.com]

Holy jumping chilly dogs Batman I so did not see that coming.

[tamlover.livejournal.com]

Okay, so Rumpel has set this all up, done this all, in his son's name. Done exactly what Bae did not want him to do. Killed, kidnapped, destroyed a world, all in pursuit of his son. He hasn't learned anything - he hasn't understood that the problem wasn't letting Bae go, it was not going with him. Bae wanted him to be what he was, to not hurt and kill innocent people. But Rumpel still does so, in pursuit of his goals. Still because of Bae, which is exactly what Bae didn't want. It is also still a selfish act - it's about getting back what he wants, not keeping the Dark One curse from being passed on.

Major kudos for Emma. Firstly, for totally calling Gold's involvement and saying he was working diagonally and flat-out saying that not being on Regina's side is not the same as being good. Also awesome for calling Regina a sociopath - some of us have been saying that for months.

Loved the Blue Fairy. She was totally in the right and Rumpel twisted things to make her the bad guy, when what she did was give him the best chance, the best opportunity to break this spell and not trap anyone else. And he didn't take it. And she gave Bae the last magic bean they had. The sheer magnitude of the gift cannot be discounted. I certainly believe her when she says that she couldn't just undo the curse. Also, to note, it's not wholly a gift to Bae and Rumpel, but also to the world. And then he attacked her and she didn't even fight back. She was totally he drove Bae away, too. She was just so awesome in this episode - much better than in "Dreamy."

I really, really, really don't want August to be Pinocchio. He doesn't look like him (hair dye) and he's dying and he hasn't talked to Marco and I still find it a cheat since only one person should be able to be sent and we already have one set of parents who didn't get to raise their kid.

The Sidney-fall-guy bit was both tragic and awesome. It's so predictable, and yet so indicative the tragic and twisted relationship there, of Regina's power over him.

Biggest disappointment: so little Kathryn. I wanted the details about her being back and questioning and issues, and we got two little scenes. And didn't get to see the Gym teacher, either.

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

My thought exactly! :D

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

I thought Rumple did what he did out of love for his son. But cowardice got the better of him when it came time to follow Bael. It barely took him a second to regret not going with him and saying his whole life would be devoted to following him. I just think he went mad at that point--did you notice he wasn't all Rumply-giggly weird in this episode? He still talked and behaved somewhat sanely. He created the curse to get rid of the magic without passing his own curse on to someone else. He even made himself vulnerable in the forest and fell for August's trick, even showed him where the knife was. I think if that really had been Bael, he'd have been happy to stay in this world without magic, which is a selfless act. Since when is wanting nothing more than to protect your child selfish? He went about it in a misguided way, but having that power in Fairy Tale Land kept him from being the coward that he was before who wouldn't have been able to keep his son from being drafted for the ogre wars.

I too was glad to hear Emma call Regina the sociopath she is. Regina's only agenda seems to be holding onto her power, while Rumple was ready to give his up.

[hughville.livejournal.com]

Excellent episode. I was very happy with the continuity.

Can I say David is a schmuck? James/Charming has a pretty strong moral code that David seems to lack. Maybe being nearly dead when the curse was enacted scrambled his brain a bit. Hopefully he'll get it together at some point or some explanation will be given for his behavior (other than there are no happy ever afters in Storybrooke).

Robert Carlyle is amazing! He gives his very best in every scene he's in. I'm kind of glad Booth wasn't Baelfire because this means he can pop up at some point.

Sydney has it BAD for Regina since he's ready to go to jail for her.

I love that Emma told Regina she is going to fight to get Henry back. The battle between these two should be epic.

[tamlover.livejournal.com]

Since when is wanting nothing more than to protect your child selfish? He went about it in a misguided way, but having that power in Fairy Tale Land kept him from being the coward that he was before who wouldn't have been able to keep his son from being drafted for the ogre wars.
I didn't say protecting Bae was selfish. That was murderous, crazy, and cruel, but not selfish.

And he murdered a man over Bae getting a scrape on the knee - and it was Bae's fault, which Bae acknowledged. I strongly disagree that the power kept him from being a coward. He still was a coward - he's just a coward with power. Bae called it and so did Belle.


What I said was selfish was centuries of harming and killing others and cursing an entire world so he could be reunited with his child.

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

I agree he was still a coward hiding behind his power and still possessed by the darkness, but I think he's learned a lot over the years, enough to have power and bravery without magic. I think he's still got some things to learn, but that gives his character room to develop, which makes him layered and interesting.

It was Regina who cursed the entire world by coldly killing her devoted father and continues to make everyone miserable 28 years later because she expected a little girl to keep a secret when she thought telling Regina's mother would help. Meanwhile, Rumple found the courage to follow his son, not even knowing if he'd ever find him, by creating the curse Regina demanded of him.

Are you saying life without magic is a curse? As Rumple is fond of saying, "All magic comes with a price." Maybe that's the moral of this show. That we need to rely on ourselves and not expect magic to save us from every little problem.

[pwalkeri.livejournal.com]

I've spent most of the series (thus far) really hating everything about David.

Recently, somebody (I dunno who), pointed out that several personalities in Storybrooke are pretty much completely different from their fairytale counterparts. It's like all the main fairytale characters, in order to destroy their happy endings, had their personalities twisted so they were completely different people.

I love Robert Carlyle, and I can't believe how amazing he is. I'm bummed that Booth isn't Baelfire, but still holding out hope that he's Pinocchio xD

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

Totally agree with everything you just said there, hughville.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

Seconded! I do agree with you on that.

He made his true choice between power or his son in that moment. Hindsight bit him in the ass, hard, but he latched on to the power and he couldn't let it go. Not even for his son because he was never used to feeling powerful since he was a coward. He was clearly addicted, to the point of wanting even more power. (I'm unsure if you agree with this point or not, or my next)

Though Bae may still be alive, I would rather him have passed away (given the huge flux of time already) so that Rumpel always has to remember what he lost because of his own selfish greed for power.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

pwalkeri summarized my feelings/thoughts and what I've said since the beginning.

In Storybrooke, these characters aren't who they were anymore. Everything about the has been changed, the biggest example is Red. We see Red, a devoted, chaste girl and in Storybrook we get Ruby, vivacous, loud, and enjoys the company of (many) men. That's the Curse, they don't remember who they were. So David won't be that Charmer we all know and love, he's doing to be someone we loathe (for the most part)

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

This episode had me on the edge of my seat. I was a nervous wreck and freaking out during it. Especially during that Red Herring moment at the cabin in the woods. But when the truth came out, if I could do a cartwheel (and do one safely without falling out a window) I would have. I did squeal and bounce on my bed and yelled a triumphant "HA" to my Sister who had been nay saying me the entire episode.

And bonus, we had that awesome party which finally had Ruby/Archie togethr for the first time in like 10 episodes AND! Happy! (the Dwarf) I love that guy! (He's my new "bff" if you believe our tweets (http://dj-rocca.livejournal.com/291695.html))

And poor poor Sidney. I hope he made a deal with Regina for something if he's going to jail for her...

[snarkysweetness.livejournal.com]

OMG I keep seeing people harping on how Emma is a horrible person for sticking around and how Regina loves Henry SOOOOOOOOOO much.

Um...no.

Glad to see that some people aren't insane, lol.

And I'm still trying to work out the hair dye thing. Some people's hair color darkens as they get older...but his would be brown if that happened, not black.

[lovedbyahero.livejournal.com]

Their fairy tale existence defined them essentially. Without their fairy tale lives, they would not be the same person. Red had her love but Ruby did not, thus is rather flirty. Cinderella had her husband and a better life, but Ashley did not and ended up a pregnant teenager all alone. I think the show seems to be experimenting with the idea whether magic is a good thing or a bad thing and they use the dual lives of these characters to show it

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

So is that why Archie is a professional advice giver, upbeat and patient, just like Jiminy Cricket was Pinocchio's conscience? Cuz they have nothing in common?

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

If you can watch it again, look at Rumple's face when he's holding onto Bae's hand as he's falling down. Rumple is terrified of going through the hole not knowing what's on the other side; it's cowardice that stopped him, not a desire for power. I don't think that makes him evil; he wanted to go with Bae, but he chickened out at the last minute. And you're right; I think that was a harsh lesson that Rumple learned, but I don't think he's the same person he was then. We've seen him at various stages of his life, and he's changed and developed and suffered the consequences of his mistakes. That's a well-written character.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

But keep in mind, they've cut a lot of archie's scenes from the show and Raphael himself hinted that there is a dark side lurking beneathe Archie' quiet exterior. But any of that that may have happened was cut for the more dramatic scenes thus losing his subplot (whatever they were)

[serenachan.livejournal.com]

But Archie wasn't a good advice giver before episode 5! He was no conscience, he was actually crappy at it and let himself be manipulated by Regina - *before* Emma's intervention.

[madwitch58.livejournal.com]

Ok I see early Rumple as turning into a bit pf a bully. I have seen it before , a wimpy kid get all buff and strong or something like that and first they use it to get back at the ones who hurt them then they turn into the very thing they hate the most. But latter it is all most as if he sees what he has become and at least tries to not be as much as an ass, as far as Bell is concerned. Rumple is a very deep complex character, I think that if they had gotten anther another other than RC to play him , he would have come off as a selfless jerk instead.
Yes he loves Bae that shows in every thing he does but in letting the power go to his head he is driving Bae away from him. As a parent my self I know what some one is willing to do for the sake of their kids. I saw my own grandmother who raised me go with out the meds she needed to live because my father and uncle blew their pay checks and could not pay their bills. By the way I made sure the rest of the family knew that, I have a viscous streak. And I think so does Emma where Henry in concerned. Emma will do what ever it is going to take to get Henry from Regina and I thing most of the town is going to side with Emma. The only thing that could stop Emma was if she thought what she was doing would some how hurt Henry. I don't think Regina would think that far, she had shown in the past that all she wants is to be the winner and will not stop till she gets what she wants no matter who gets hurt.

[pwalkeri.livejournal.com]

This!

It wasn't until Emma showed up that we've started seeing the fairytale versions of these people come back (Red and her tracking, MMB and her kick-ass hand-to-hand, Thomas/Ashley get back together, etc). It's slow, but it's happening. But that's why David is such a schmuck.

[serenachan.livejournal.com]

Yup! Because David was actually wonderful before he "regained" his memories - he was like, nope, I want you, no doubts about it. He was acting just like Charming would have in that situation. Then he saw that windmill and the curse got him - and he got a fake personality along with fake memories,

[lamerezouille.livejournal.com]

I think what I loved most about this episode was realising that when Rumpel refused to kiss Belle not to lose his powers, it wasn't just because of the powers, but because they were his only way to find Bae.

I love how everything fits so well in this show.

And I now wonder if maybe we've already seen Bae in Storybrooke before? I'd love for him to be someone unexpected like Dr Whale or something (though Whale seems to me more believable as Pinocchio: blond-haired and Whale - there's a link there...)

And with this fight for Henry that seems about to begin, I really wonder what exactly is Henry's significance as far as the curse is concerned and why is he so important to Regina? Is it more than just having leverage on Emma?

[icki-akki.livejournal.com]

I really really really want to know about these! I had no idea there was a darker undertone to his character.

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

I had wondered where Archie's been all this time, but I didn't know they cut his scenes out. That's too bad cuz I like him/Raphael Sbarge.

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

What I wonder (and also why I didn't think of this before) is whether Henry knows Mr. Gold is Rumplestiltskin. But, yeah, it's about to get interesting.

Yeah, I think Dr. Whale would make sense as Pinocchio; he is a bit "wooden." ;) But then I "wooden" think that Pinocchio could be grown up since time stopped when the Storybrooke Curse was set in place.

"I think what I loved most about this episode was realising that when Rumpel refused to kiss Belle not to lose his powers, it wasn't just because of the powers, but because they were his only way to find Bae."

Well said!

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

I agree, Rumple is an extremely complex character, and getting Robert Carlyle was a real casting coup because he is able to play all those different aspects to the character--some simultaneously--so believably. And despite his flaws, there's still something likable or at least relatable in him always just below the surface. Maybe it's that he's capable of genuine love (for his son and for Belle) ... and that hint of sadness that Mr. Gold always seems to emanate--which seems to add fuel to his temper. Despite his almost unfailing patience (which came unravelled last night at the very thought that he'd found Bae).

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

"But Archie wasn't a good advice giver before episode 5! He was no conscience, he was actually crappy at it and let himself be manipulated by Regina - *before* Emma's intervention."

But everyone (except Henry and Rumple) was in sort of a trance, totally under Regina's control and oblivious to it, until Emma came to town. Now the clock is ticking again they're gradually getting their personalities back (if not their actual memories), and Archie seems to me to be caring and helpful. But we don't know the full story since, unfortunately, all his scenes have been cut this season between "That Still Small Voice" and now. (Because wishy-washy David and Mary Margaret's endless "she loves me/she loves me not" melodrama really demands to be told in agonizing detail. ;))

[snarkysweetness.livejournal.com]

I'm positive Whale is Monstro.

[snarkysweetness.livejournal.com]

You do realize that if he is transported to prison...he's going to die or be seriously injured. Regina knows this, but poor Sidney has no idea.

[snarkysweetness.livejournal.com]

Is there anywhere that lists what might be in these scenes? Archie is adorable. They'd better have these on my dvds when they come out.

[dj-rocca.livejournal.com]

I doubt he's going to prison, Regina cannot lose her only actual ally left. And if he left town wouldnt the one he loves suffer (IE: Ruby left or attempted to and Gran had a heart attack)? That's part of the curse, and once again, Regina would be the one paying that price.

I'm just hoping, given how many episodes we have left, they drop all charges and move one to Emma's custody battle which she should lose since she signed the closed adoption.

[thetaet.livejournal.com]

My daughter said she saw a hidden Mickey in Mr. Gold's office. I missed it and haven't re-watched it yet to see if I can find it. Did anyone else see it? Not sure how "hidden" it was since she said she saw it on a shelf somewhere.

[bloodysuicide69.livejournal.com]

What makes you say this?

[ladynomad915.livejournal.com]

was so excited that the two weeks was over.
we have only one tv that is working and its my roommates. Was fine waiting till monday for HULU's upload and then my roommates knocked on the door and told me the show was on and asked if i wanted to watch it. (lol i think i have droven them nuts the last few weeks only talking about OUAT)
We missed the first 7 minutes (later caught up on HULU)

In fairytale land I felt so sorry for bea about how he wanted his father back to the person who he was and Rumpel was so ubsessed with wanting more power. I also felt sorry for Rumple for lossing bea he shouldn't been a coward and followed him.
loved the blue fairy.

in our world i kept hoping that August was Bea. When he first called Mr. Gold "papa" I was so excited I yelled out yes. When August pointed the dagger at mr. gold I then thought this cant be bea. I think bea would have known that there was no magic in Storybrook and also after all those years he still would probably be against magic. He never wanted to inslave his dad he wanted to save him.

Im thinking Rumpelstiltskin created the curse not just for Regina, but for himself. Myabe he had finaly found the world with out magic that bea was in and that was Storynrooke. I keep thinking that after the scene with him and regina at the begining of the episode.

Well now we know why Mr. gold hates the nuns, even though they have no memorie that they use to me fairies, he still blames them for talking away his son.

[sukybarbossa.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I wouldn't say I'm positive, but it sounds like a good theory. I think Dr Whale is definitely working for Regina. And, well, in the Pinocchio story, doesn't he get swallowed by Monstro the Whale?

[snarkysweetness.livejournal.com]

At first I thought he was connected to the Little Mermaid story, but then when I realized August had to be Pinocchio, I connected Archie's last name being 'Hopper' to Jiminy and then I started thinking 'Whale' could be a nod to Monstro. I don't think he's the actual whale, but he has something to do with the Pinocchio story and that Monstro in this case might be a human who leads Pinocchio astray.

Then again, he could just be a character from TLM and his last name is just a clue to us that he was originally under the sea, so to speak.

[snarkysweetness.livejournal.com]

Yup.